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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

999 replies

Gingerkittykat · 22/06/2019 14:24

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

OP posts:
GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 24/06/2019 08:48

@BertrandRussell but you yourself have repeatedly told me that it's a best interests test? Are you now saying this is not the case? That the court would have had to hear medical evidence of physical or mental harm to the mother being caused by the continuation of the pregnancy?

Because saying that the mother might have her mental health harmed later by having her baby adopted is not a medical reason. It's a horrifying precedent.

BertrandRussell · 24/06/2019 09:35

@BertrandRussell but you yourself have repeatedly told me that it's a best interests test?”
It is.

Have you read all the evidence that was put before the court and listened to and questioned all the expert witnesses? If not- what are you basing your opinions on?

LangCleg · 24/06/2019 09:54

For those who do not want to make ghoulish speculations about the facts of this distressing case which are not in the public domain for good reason, but would like to know how the Court of Protection approaches some of the most difficult decisions on behalf of the most vulnerable adults in the country, here are some resources.

autonomy.essex.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/EAP-Court-of-Protection.pdf

Overview of the history of the court with various precedent case law.

ukhumanrightsblog.com/2016/02/26/abortion-mental-incapacity-and-prior-intentions-court-of-protection-clarifies-the-law/

www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_comment/cs-termination-of-pregnancy-2016-ewcop-10

An article about, and the judgement for, a case where the NHS was given permission to terminate the pregnancy of a woman lacking capacity. In this case, the woman had previously indicated a wish to terminate but nevertheless, the required legal frameworks and principles the court must follow are carefully laid out.

Just to reiterate: I find the speculation about the parties in this case, and particularly the pregnant woman, to be deeply distasteful. It's one thing to discuss the workings of the Court of Protection but it's quite another to project speculation and personal emotion onto a vulnerable adult. This woman is not a cipher for anyone's political views.

PouncerDarling · 24/06/2019 10:05

Concerns about the rights of all women being eroded is not using this woman. And personally, I find it distasteful to suggest that people wouldn't or shouldn't have a visceral, emotional reaction to the situation.

BertrandRussell · 24/06/2019 10:08

“I find it distasteful to suggest that people wouldn't or shouldn't have a visceral, emotional reaction to the situation.”
Of course they can. That is why we have an appointed process to consider decisions like this in as dispassionate a way as possible.

BertrandRussell · 24/06/2019 10:10

“Concerns about the rights of all women being eroded is not using this woman.”

She is being used to fuel scaremongering. Which is distasteful in the extreme.

PouncerDarling · 24/06/2019 10:12

Scaremongering is not the same as finding something genuinely terrifying and dystopian.

It's really important that we keep our humanity about us and don't sleepwalk into accepting things that horrify us purely because we've been told to.

Isatis · 24/06/2019 10:12

Her own mother and social worker think the pregnancy should continue, I would imagine they know her better than a judge.

No, not the social worker. This is a social worker appointed to represent her interests, so s/he doesn't put forward personal views. It appears to be only her mother who thinks this, and given her religion she may not have her daughter's interests at the forefront.

She does not need to make a choice.

No, a choice has to be made, because clinicians who have all the facts say it will be damaging to her to continue the pregnancy.

The law should not be able to step in and alter the lives of people, even vulnerable people, in this way, IMHO.

Really? Even when vulnerable people are unable to make decisions in their own best interests are being exploited and/or putting their lives in danger? How far should this go? After all, the law steps in on behalf of children and alters their lives every day.

"So she should be thrown out just after having a baby she can’t be around because one day she might need to move?" No, of course not, don't put words into my mouth!

But that would be the consequence of this woman giving birth and her mother looking after the baby as she apparently wants to.

"The law is there to protect vulnerable adults." then why isn't 'the law' sterilizing everyone who they deem should not get pregnant

Come on this isn't difficult. Because, amongst other matters, there are other means of avoiding pregnancy.

"They have capacity to make an informed choice." actually, we just assume everyone does. But we don't know. There may be a whole raft of women out there getting pregnant and having babies who do not have the full capacity you or I have.

No, that argument just doesn't work. The law is never going to get involved in this way unless and until someone is shown to lack capacity in relation to the decision in question. It's not a matter of having the full capacity you or I have, it's a matter of all concerned being sure that the person in question has no capacity at all.

I am saying her mum may know her daughter better than these other 'professions'. She may know how she would cope with both eventualities.

Yet people who know the patient and know much more about her mental health say otherwise. Why should our uninformed speculation take precedence?

It's interesting that we haven't heard about any appeal which would be expedited in a case like this.

The judge gas presumed to know the future of a young vulnerable adult, it seems an all along precedent to set. Truely appalling.

No, she's made the best decision she can out of a number of bad options and on the basis of the evidence in front of her. She has no choice other than to do so, that is the function of the Court of Protection - if there is any precedent, it was set decades ago and has been accepted ever since.

Take a fairly common situation with which the court deals: a vulnerable adult is in the care of a relative who is neglecting her and exploiting her. All concerned, apart from the relative, say they see no prospect of this changing and it is harmful to the adult whose health is deteriorating and will continue to do so. The court is asked to make alternative orders for the patient's care and does so. Inevitably the judge is predicting the future: should they refuse to do so, leaving the patient where she is, and is "truly appalling" if they don't?

Isatis · 24/06/2019 10:17

I think most of us, are just scared of this case setting precedent for forced abortion to become the next way to control women’s choices

It doesn't set that precedent. The right to order abortion in a woman's best interests (e.g. to prevent death or serious injury) has been around for a long time without that eventuality happening.

It’s a huge ethical dilemma and I think there needs to be ethical benchmarks around the topic so the public could feel safe.

There are. It's what the Court of Protection is dealing with every day.

It just does seem that in this case, the perceived “rights” of a newborn is trumping the rights of the woman carrying them

Other way round, I think.

BertrandRussell · 24/06/2019 10:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Isatis · 24/06/2019 10:23

So I do not think the court should make this decisions. I think that where a woman does not have capacity and the pregnancy has progressed beyond the first trimester a termination should only be allowed in case of medical reasons.

As I understand, medical reasons are a very strong factor in this case. I don't understand why people don't apparently think that mental health issues are medical.

The fact that the woman's lawyer made a submission to the contrary doesn't make that a fact.

PouncerDarling · 24/06/2019 10:23

I'm always cautious in debates like this. It's a bit of an odd one for me though. I have never been on the opposite side to a proposed termination.

I'm already planning to have any of my posts about my personal information redacted by MN, if they'll let me. I'm just waiting to get to 1000 posts. I'd rather not have anything I've said be taken out of context as being anti-choice.

PouncerDarling · 24/06/2019 10:26

As much as it is for a lawyer to make adequate representations on behalf of their client, it is forbidden to make fabrications or suggest things that the lawyer knows to be untrue. If the lawyer representing her submits that there is no medical reason for the termination, that is certainly correct.

Isatis · 24/06/2019 10:26

I agree with what was referred to overnight - the decision made might be intended to be only about the woman, but it is unintentionally biased towards the baby. If this family had sufficient resources available for the mother and baby to be cared for together, she wouldn't be being forced to terminate.

What resources? This woman has a mood disorder that makes her dangerous to her child. It's not something that will just go away with a bit of social worker support. Is that a risk you would want to take for any child? To keep the child safe you would have to have at least two people present 24 hours a day to ensure that the mother can never hurt the baby. Is that a way for any child to live?

Isatis · 24/06/2019 10:28

If the lawyer representing her submits that there is no medical reason for the termination, that is certainly correct.

Is that actually the submission that was made? It sounds highly unlikely in light of the judgment. They may well have submitted that there was no adequate medical reason, but that is not a submission about the facts.

LangCleg · 24/06/2019 10:31

I'm already planning to have any of my posts about my personal information redacted by MN, if they'll let me.

This is understandable. MNHQ will withdraw any/all of your posts with information you wish you hadn't shared. Just go through and use the report function for them. They're usually quick for this.

PouncerDarling · 24/06/2019 10:32

If the lawyer says that there is no adequate medical reason, then there isn't. You may not lie when making your defence arguments.

PouncerDarling · 24/06/2019 10:33

I don't mind having had shared them, but I don't think it's wise to leave them where they could be taken out of context.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 24/06/2019 10:51

I do find the insinuation that people on this thread are not what they seem to be insulting. I really do hope you aren't talking about me.

@Carowiththegoodhair is a catholic and as such likely to be against abortion in general. I suspect she isnt making any secret of this.

Isatis · 24/06/2019 10:56

If the lawyer says that there is no adequate medical reason, then there isn't. You may not lie when making your defence arguments.

That isn't a lie. It's a statement of opinion about the adequacy of the evidence.

It's comparable to what happens at, for instance, the close of the prosecution case in a criminal trial if the defence submits there is no case to answer: they're submitting that the evidence against their client isn't adequate to support a conviction. It isn't a factual statement, and the prosecution will say that the evidence is adequate. Neither of them is lying.

PouncerDarling · 24/06/2019 11:06

But you are able to make an argument that there is sufficient evidence that there is a medical reason, presumably?

Because unless you are able to do so, I am going with the defence's argument that this evidence does not exist.

LangCleg · 24/06/2019 11:18

CoP is not adversarial in the sense that criminal proceedings are adversarial. Munby J on this:

The processes of the Court of Protection are essentially inquisitorial rather than adversarial. In other words, the ambit of the litigation is determined, not by the parties, but by the court, because the function of the court is not to determine in a disinterested way a dispute brought to it by the parties, but rather, to engage in a process of assessing whether an adult is lacking in capacity, and if so, making decisions about his welfare that are in his best interests

Isatis · 24/06/2019 11:35

But you are able to make an argument that there is sufficient evidence that there is a medical reason, presumably?

It would appear that a number of lawyers at the hearing made precisely that argument. I see that one reports indicates that the submission was actually that there was no "proper" evidence - which is a significant difference from "no evidence".

A submission that the evidence isn't adequate to prove something in a case like this really can't be a statement of fact. It's a submission, nothing more. Lawyers make submissions about the state of the evidence in courts throughout the land, all day every day. Given that, in most cases, they are on opposite sides to each other, you can't say that each and every one of them must be right because lawyers can't say what's untrue.

PouncerDarling · 24/06/2019 11:37

But we can say that it has been submitted in court that there is no medical reason for the termination to go ahead and that that submission is not a fabrication.

R0wantrees · 24/06/2019 12:06

I find the speculation about the parties in this case, and particularly the pregnant woman, to be deeply distasteful. It's one thing to discuss the workings of the Court of Protection but it's quite another to project speculation and personal emotion onto a vulnerable adult. This woman is not a cipher for anyone's political views.

This ^^

Its been a long time since Ive read a thread on FWR filled with so much ignorance of Safeguarding & appropriation of a complex, tragic situation.

The few voices of those with actual knowledge & appreciation of the context of CoP decisions stand out for me and hopefully for many others reading.