A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

IHow can they justify killing a healthy baby against the mum and grandma's wishes?*

Because, as it should be, their wishes mean fuck all. The interests of the vulnerable person with incapacity are paramount.

*@SauvignonBlanche *
Having a learning disability does not affect your ability to have any enjoy sex,

She has the mental age of 9. This is such funfeminsit bullshit. Sex for women had no consequences eh? It's all about enjoyment? Well yes it's enjoyable for men because there are NO consequences for them. While it can be enjoyable for women, we face massive consequences if we have it. This idea that intercourse is all fun and games and about enjoyment is so nineties. Radical feminists have moved the argument forward. So what if it's enjoyable. You don't do it if you're not prepared or able to deal with the consequences. And if you don't understand the consequences, because you have the mental age of 9, then you have been raped

I hope this isn't outing. An acquaintance of mine has a 21 year old daughter with Down's syndrome- she can't live independently, can't take public transport and can only be left home alone for a couple of hours. I have no idea if this is similar to the woman (she is a woman not a child ) described in the OP but might well be. This Dd has a boyfriend- who also has LDs (they met at college) she stays at his house and he stays at hers. Her mother sees this as unremarkable (tbh as do I). She has long acting hormonal contraception that her mother helped her to acsess. In no way could these young person raise a baby, I don't see why that means they can't have a happy and fufilling relationship. I don't think we can say this young woman was raped or that her mother failed to protect her, except perhaps by not helping her organise contraception.

I work with adults with learning disabilities, and an adult woman with a mental age of 9 (we aren't allowed to phrase it like that any more, officially) is not the same as an actual 9 year old.

It does say 6-9 in the article, not 9. It's not actually, of course, possible to be exact to the year.

The mental capacity of a 6-9 year old usually means moderate learning disabilities. In the end, although we're also not supposed to use IQ, that is a measure of IQ not holistic age equivalence. She probably has an IQ under 50.

She might be far more mature than you're average 9 year old, or far less mature than your average 6 year old.

Normally she'd be able to consent to sex, because she isn't 9, she's in her 20s. She has the same physical wants/ needs/ desires as anyone in their 20s (which, of course, could mean no interest in sex at all or a great interest, but that's unrelated to IQ).

Of course she's also hugely vulnerable to abuse, and that's one of the problems - she had adult rights, up to a point, but they conflict with the responsibility of her care giver and society to protect her from abuse of all kinds. It sounds as though in this case she does not have a partner, as how she became pregnant is being investigated.

I don't think it was necessarily right to make her have an abortion but her case will be so incredibly complicated the article can't possibly explain the intricacies. Most of them are confidential.

The article hints strongly that she'd be an actual danger to her baby due to her mood disorder, so she probably has significant comorbid mental illness, not "only" an intellectual disability. The article hints that it would be impossible for her to live with the baby even if her mother did the care.

It's very likely she's on psychiatric medication incompatible with a healthy pregnancy, or has had to come off such medication while pregnant.

@PouncerDarling how could a 9 year old be expected to make a choice about having a baby??

I despair I really do. Feminists ( the real ones) are eschewing intercourse as a political statement, becoming celibates, remaining spinsters, or even ( controversially) becoming lesbians because of the demonstrable harm to women (not men) of sexual intercourse ( unwanted pregnancies, diseases, reliance on chemical contraception). And here we have someone saying "well a woman with the mental capacity of a 9 year old can still enjoy sex". Who cares? Feminists have done a risk assessment of intercourse and concluded whatever enjoyment you may ( or most likely may not) get is not worth the consequences.
If she has the mental age of 9, she can't have worked all of this out, and so should have been protected from predatory males.

I was going to say similar to hopefulhalf.
It doesn't say how she got pregnant so the comments about rape are mere speculation.
There was a case about 20 years ago where a Down syndrome couple wished to marry but those involved were applying for her to be sterilised. She was deemed capable of being in a relationship but not deemed capable of raising a child. Not sure what the result was in court.
The only Down syndrome girl I knew well most definitely had all the normal sexual desires of a teenage girl.

Twicemummy WTAF ? Having consensual sex is anti-feminist ?

You have quoted me very selectively @twicemummy1

I wa making the point that @anothernotherone makes so well above that Normally she'd be able to consent to sex, because she isn't 9, she's in her 20s. She has the same physical wants/ needs/ desires as anyone in their 20s (which, of course, could mean no interest in sex at all or a great interest, but that's unrelated to IQ)

Of course sexual intercourse has enormous consequences which is why I also made the point about some one with a Learning disability being highly susceptible to abuse. Capacity to consent is not a black and white issue and each decision should be assessed individually looking at all the facts, something that neither you or I are party to.

Give over with your "real" feminists, twice.

@Jemima232 oh my goodness that is horrific. I too work in the NHS and have heard stories about homeless women coming in for TOPs and the surgeons mashing their Fallopian tubes whilst they are under..... how scary is that. So tragic and it makes me feel weird just thinking about it.... not sure if the story was true as it was just a story but still.....

Normally a young learning disabled woman like her would be on long term contraception.

It seems like her mother objects to contraception, too. And I'm very suspicious of her motives.

Those saying she should have an abortion should read this

and this

One is the New Statesman and the other is the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine.

That’s a horrific thing for a small child to go through (to all intents and purposes she is a small child, mentally).
No, she isn’t.

The woman isn't having her choice taken away. She is having her choice made for her because she does not have the capacity to do so.

The thought of my 6 year old being fully responsible for her hamster is fucking scary let alone a human baby.

@teyem The reason I say "real" feminists is not because I think I have the handbook on feminism or because there is One Right Way, but because there has been a concerted attempt to coopt feminism and turn it into something it's definitely not. This is how women's studies turned into queer theory at universities.
The intercourse question is up for debate, that's all, and no I don't think you have to give up intercourse to be a feminist, not at all.
When I say "feminists, the real ones," I'm not talking about women trying to navigate their path through feminism and making mistakes and backtracking and changing their mind, which we all do. I'm talking about being lectured to on feminism by transwomen who tell me that they need to educate me on where real women have got it wrong. Or the pimp lobby, who also want to tell us how we're doing feminism wrong. They're the people I'm talking about. Should've made that clearer

The mental age thing isn't used any more precisely because it's so misleading. It actually indicates IQ.

An exceptionally intelligent 12 year old with an impressive but possible IQ of 150 (160 is/ was considered genius level) would have a mental age of 18, by the old calculations.

Clearly a 12 year old, no matter how close to genius level intelligence they were, is not 18. They are 12. They cannot consent to sex, or drive a car, or be tried as an adult.

This woman isn't 9, she is a woman in her 20s with moderate learning disabilities and a mood disorder. A mood disorder is a mental illness which could be severe depression, bipolar or a range of other things and could, but might not, even include periods of psychosis, hallucinations or delusion, so it's clearly a complex case.

this is tragic but the right choice

she doesn't understand what she is agreeing to by continuing the pregnancy and that would be much much more traumatic than ending it.

I volunteer with someone who sounds very like this adult. I don't like using "mental age" to describe her either as she's not 7, 8 or 9 but in her 30s. However, her cognitive ability is that of a child. Her reading and writing ability is very limited, certainly below the level of my 10 year old. She struggles with things like public transport and using a cash machine. She has very poor nutrition because she simply doesn't understand concepts like "calories" and even that eating fruit is a better choice than chocolate. She lives independently - but only because her sister lives across the street and deals with everything like the gas bill and boiler breakdowns and is on hand to check up on her regularly. There is NO WAY she would be able to manage a baby.

She has a boyfriend, who also has learning difficulties. He has similar levels of understanding and comprehension. Neither of them would be able to understand that sex could potentially equal pregnancy. Neither of them would understand the concept of "consent" or "rape". At the moment she tells me it's all holding hands and going to the cinema, but who knows if their relationship progresses further? I'm not even sure that they would have the level of understanding to realise that what they were doing was "sex".

There are NO easy options here. It's impossible for the people involved to understand what they're in for. Yes they want a baby, but don't have any comprehension of what that means. Parents and carers have to walk the line between encouraging someone to be as independent as possible, yet protect them. Social workers are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Awful situation all round.

I get that twice but the way you set your argument suggests that your bar for real feminism is right up there with being a fully paid up member of scum.

I get that twice but the way you set your argument suggests that your bar for real feminism is right up there with being a fully paid up member of scum.

She has the mental age of 9. This is such funfeminsit bullshit. Sex for women had no consequences eh? It's all about enjoyment? Well yes it's enjoyable for men because there are NO consequences for them. While it can be enjoyable for women, we face massive consequences if we have it. This idea that intercourse is all fun and games and about enjoyment is so nineties. Radical feminists have moved the argument forward. So what if it's enjoyable. You don't do it if you're not prepared or able to deal with the consequences. And if you don'tunderstandthe consequences, because you have the mental age of 9, then you have been raped

You are misinterpreting what posters such as MrsTP said. The body continues to mature physically and sexually although the mind does not rationalise what that means beyond it feels good. People with learning disabilities do engage in sexual relationships.

As Sarahclara said normally a young learning disabled woman like her would be on long term contraception.
It seems like her mother objects to contraception, too. And I'm very suspicious of her motives.

"The woman’s mother, a former midwife who opposes abortion, had offered to care for the child with her daughter’s help.

But the judge pointed out that social workers were unlikely to accept this, because of the risks posed by the woman’s psychological limitations.

She said that if the baby stayed with the mother, the woman might have to leave her home.

The baby might also have to live with foster carers or be placed for adoption.

Horrible fucking country. 22 weeks old. The grandmother wants her grandchild but the fucking state knows 'best'.

I am so glad to be an American.

I'm talking about being lectured to on feminism by transwomen who tell me that they need to educate me on where real women have got it wrong

Fgs do you have to shoehorn trans issues into everything?