Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

I know transwoman and transman are, which are nouns to describe people who have changed sex, but "trans" as an adjective to describe a woman or man as far as I know does not exist?

In the text of relevant UK statutes the only term used is "transsexual".

The terms "transgender", "transwoman", transman", "gender identity" and "gender expression" are not included in any statute.

Trans IdentifyING Male surely?

Male transitioners sounds good. Thanks @JackyHolyoake. I cannot bear to use the word 'woman' whether 'transwoman' or 'trans woman' to describe a male. It's incorrect, illogical, highly politicised, kneecaps women from describing reality and sexism, and is deeply confusing. Please reconsider your policy @MNHQ

The problem with "male transitioners" is that it suggests that a transition from man to women is possible.

Who has the right, to police the language we use?
Why are we letting them?

This is a forum for Mothers FFS, we are women. Not cis women.
Trans identifying Male is more factually correct than transwoman.

Those Male bodied people in possession of a GRC are legally women, but that does not make them women in the real biological sense of the word and that is not hate speech.

Those Male bodied people in possession of a GRC are legally women

But, only in the restricted circumstances that relate to interaction with UK law.

The GRA 2004 is very restricted inits explanation of what possession of a GRC permits.

The Equality Act 2010 imposes further restrictions via Schedule 3 [sections 26, 27 and 28], Schedule 9 [Work] and 23, section 3 [Communal accommodation].

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

In referring to Schedule 9 [Work: Exceptions] I should have been more specific and referred to Section 1, subsection 3a:

The references in sub-paragraph (1) to a requirement to have a protected characteristic are to be read—

(a) in the case of gender reassignment, as references to a requirement not to be a transsexual person
(and section 7(3) is accordingly to be ignored);

Perhaps Male transexual then? I know TRAs say that’s unacceptable but it is still allowed under the law isn’t it? So why are we not allowed to say it here? MNHQ have replied to my reported opening post & said they can discuss this further next week. Please anyone else wanting to make arguments in favour of this (or against, so we can discuss) do post on here.

The problem with "male transitioners" is that it suggests that a transition from man to women is possible.

That's a very good point.

My preferred term is still the banned term but I'm easy with any term that doesn't use female or woman to describe male bodied people...though I do like to use the term ma'am...

I agree, we need the right and accurate words to speak the truth. I think trans identifying male works best - it suggests that they are the ones doing the identifying, as opposed to identified which sounds like it is externally observed/ applied. Or equally good is "male who identifies as trans" per CharlieParley or born male at a push as it says what is most necessary.

I think male transitioner implies some sort of activeness in transitioning which a) may not be the case and b) sex cannot be changed anyway

I has taken me nearly 2 years of MNing about this subject to consistently get transwoman and transman the trans lobby 'right' way round, and still when talking to DH about it he/we get it muddled.

Other people I have spoken to do too and I think just as with pronouns it causes people to become disorientated and lose confidence in what they are saying and how to express it. Sometimes you can actually see the confusion clogging up people's brains and speech.

It is a big part of the problem.

I use Male who identify as trans. I don’t see why that should cause issues. Sex is immutable and gender is a sex stereotype. They can’t stop being of the male sex.

I can't think of one good reason why we should be compelled to call transvestites/men with AGP/transexuals.........transwomen.
They have more in common with men than women, so the word woman is not theirs to use. I really hope MNHQ to use the correct words.

Some do have GRCs.
Transwoman is the dictionary definition of a male to female transsexual.
If you can’t even cope with saying ‘transwoman’ don’t act like you’ve experienced ‘literal violance’ if you are called CIS.

As far as I am concerned, since no GRC exists, it is a male transitioning to transvestism; that is an autogynephilic male.
Don’t even know where to start with this.

Women don't talk about literal violence, if the term 'literal violence' is used it's an easy way to know you're not dealing with a woman however the person identifies. Women have rather too much experience of real life male violence to use the term in frivolous ways Earlywalker

I think trans identifying male would avoid confusion, I think its the least confusing to most people.

Transwoman is the dictionary definition of a male to female transsexual.

So dictionary definitions are OK again? No need for cis (which is in any case a word, not an acronym) then - since the dictionary definition of 'woman' is one that I for one am totally happy with - adult, human, female.

Having read through all the comments, I'm not sure if there were any that mentioned respecting the preference of the trans person. Is it such a bad thing to allow people to define themselves?

earlywalker why should women have to "cope" with referring to male bodied people as transwomen? Why can't we just say male identifying as trans?

sounds a bit like lesbians having to cope with some women who have penises?

Pls can you expand yr thoughts?

Just a reminder: it’s Friday. The weekend mods will be on soon and this thread will disappear.

Butterfly I'll respect a chosen name, I will use the name as a person introduces themselves to me, I would do that for anyone, trans or not, but I won't use preferred pronouns.

buttetrflyT is it acceptable for a white woman to define themselves as a black woman?

It is generally no ok to identify into a minority, or repressed group, that you are not part of.

Yes I know literal violence is a TRA term. Some people get very sensitive over the term cis too.

That is the dictionary definition for woman. What’s your point? You want to moan that some people won’t use the dictionary definition of woman while simultaneously saying you don’t want to use it for Transwoman?

Calling someone a transwoman at their request doesn’t harm anyone. I can understand why you may have a problem calling them a woman. But to have an issue with the term ‘transwoman’ is taking it too far now.