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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Potential Systemic Safeguarding failures in NSPCC / Childline illustrated by appointment & ending of relationship with Munroe Bergdorf Thread 2

476 replies

R0wantrees · 13/06/2019 13:05

link to previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605120-Munroe-Childline-s-first-LGBT-campaigner

NSPCC statement by CEO Peter Wanless
www.nspcc.org.uk/what-we-do/news-opinion/munroe-bergdorf

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3609218-Hi-from-Safe-Schools-Alliance-UK

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
2BthatUnnoticed · 20/06/2019 02:22

To me the most worrying thing is that the definition of child sex abuse has been quietly changed so it now refers to something which "upsets" the child. The whole point of grooming is that the child may not seem upset (at least, not at the time).

Why hasn't this made the news? I don't know. I'm afraid it may be the same reason that Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris and the Catholic Church did not make the news. Many people knew it is wrong, and talked about it, but it did not make the news.

ChickenonaMug · 20/06/2019 11:53

To me the most worrying thing is that the definition of child sex abuse has been quietly changed so it now refers to something which "upsets" the child. The whole point of grooming is that the child may not seem upset (at least, not at the time).

I completely agree 2BthatUnnoticed thousands upon thousands of primary school children have now been taught this incorrect, confusing and shaming definition of sexual abuse. The NSPCC plan to teach it to all primary school children which is more than 4 million. A vast number of those children will already be being sexually abused. I believe that the NSPCC claims that two children in every class are being or have been sexually abused.

As someone who was groomed and sexually abused as a child I know how I would have heard and then interpreted the NSPCC's definition of sexual abuse and it would certainly have not enabled me to stop or disclose the abuse. In fact, even if I had had the maturity at the time to reinterpret how the NSPCC were defining sexual abuse to actually include what was happening to me - which I had been groomed to be unconcerned about, it would then have just added to the many reasons why I did not feel able to disclose what was going on. There is no way the definition would have helped me to disclose if I had then thought that 'normal' children were frightened by sexual abuse and clever enough to recognise it when it occurs. What child will want to disclose abuse if they are thinking that their lack of a fear response to sexual abuse means that they were either too stupid to recognise abuse or that their abuser is right and that they actually wanted it.

I expect most abusers understand that the easiest way to sexual abuse a child is to ensure that, for a while at least, she thinks that what is happening to her is entirely unconcerning or even desired. Once the sexual abuse has occurred for long enough then even when the child does recognise what is happening and become upset by it then 'shame' will take over and prevent the child from disclosing or stopping the abuse. I really hate to say it , but in my opinion, the NSPCC are actually helping to do an abuser's job for them, with their definition. The NSPCC need to rectify this error immediately.

I sadly believe that the NSPCC's definition could contribute to children who are abused for longer. This utterly horrifies me and should horrify them.

This is of course, about so much more than a man who behaved in an awful way at work and online whilst working at the UK's leading child protection charity. This is about a culture at the NSPCC that is failing to sufficiently recognise and respond appropriately to their and their employees mistakes and wrongdoings.. A culture that is failing to understand and respect those who are pointing out safeguarding errors. It is also about a culture which appears to me, to be failing to properly understand and centre abused children in everything that it does.

I don't want the NSPCC to fail, I really don't. I just want it to do better for the sake of all vulnerable and abused children

TheInebriati · 20/06/2019 12:40

The NSPCC may be trying to change the definition of abuse, but legally its still the same as it was.

Annexe B;
Child sexual abuse;
Involves forcing or enticing a child or young person to take part in sexual activities, not necessarily involving a high level of violence, whether or not the child is aware of what is happening.
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/child-sexual-abuse-guidelines-prosecuting-cases-child-sexual-abuse

Even if the child is unaware, it is still abuse. The problem is not the law, the problem is what is happening within the NSPCC.
Who made the decision to change the wording, and why. They need to be held accountable.

ChickenonaMug · 20/06/2019 12:59

Yes exactly TheInebriati the problem is not the law or even the definition on the NSPCC's main website. The problem is the definition that they have decided to go to into primary schools and teach every child. This is the damaging definition. Why are they teaching this to children when they are certainly not teaching the same children that physical abuse or neglect is only occurring if a child becomes worried by it? The NSPCC needs to understand the damage that this definition is causing and act on this immediately.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 20/06/2019 23:17

This whole thing is horrifying. My daughter will have been given that definition. It wasn't that long ago she had an NSPCC assembly. Wrong, wrong wrong. Thanks for your posts Chicken and TheInebriati.

Agree entirely with this:

This is of course, about so much more than a man who behaved in an awful way at work and online whilst working at the UK's leading child protection charity. This is about a culture at the NSPCC that is failing to sufficiently recognise and respond appropriately to their and their employees mistakes and wrongdoings.. A culture that is failing to understand and respect those who are pointing out safeguarding errors. It is also about a culture which appears to me, to be failing to properly understand and centre abused children in everything that it does. I don't want the NSPCC to fail, I really don't. I just want it to do better for the sake of all vulnerable and abused children

Thismonkeysgonetodevon · 21/06/2019 09:39

To me the most worrying thing is that the definition of child sex abuse has been quietly changed so it now refers to something which "upsets" the child. The whole point of grooming is that the child may not seem upset (at least, not at the time).

I have just received a letter that my daughter will be receiving this talk. Should I be alerting the school that the NSPCC definition of what constitutes abuse is incorrect?

Popchyk · 21/06/2019 09:44

Wonder if MNHQ would take this up as a campaign?

Solely to get the wording of the definition of child sexual abuse at NSPCC changed. To reflect the wording that the CPS uses.

It could be just the impetus (a large forum largely used by mothers) to get the NSPCC to change it. MN has clout.

Tootsweets23 · 21/06/2019 09:45

I want to do some sort of safeguarding training, as I'm conscious I don't really know about it beyond what I read here. I'm a parent, no professional reason to do this. Can anyone recommend a good organisation or place to start?

TheInebriati · 21/06/2019 10:04

I would, give them the info from this Government link;

Child Sexual Abuse: Guidelines on Prosecuting Cases of Child Sexual Abuse
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/child-sexual-abuse-guidelines-prosecuting-cases-child-sexual-abuse

Especially this section;
Context and circumstances of child sexual abuse;
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/child-sexual-abuse-guidelines-prosecuting-cases-child-sexual-abuse#a04

Sexual communication with a child
80 On 3 April 2017, section 15A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force (inserted by the Serious Crime Act 2015, section 67).
81 This section fills a previous gap in the law. It means that a person can be charged when their contact with the child may be regarded as being in the initial stages of grooming but has not gone as far as inciting sexual activity. Previously, these communications whilst deeply inappropriate could not result in criminal charges until the communication had developed further.

Annexe B;
Child sexual abuse
Involves forcing or enticing a child or young person to take part in sexual activities, not necessarily involving a high level of violence, whether or not the child is aware of what is happening.
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/child-sexual-abuse-guidelines-prosecuting-cases-child-sexual-abuse

Grooming
'Grooming' is not a specific form of child sexual exploitation but should be seen as a way in which perpetrators target children and manipulate their environments. It is an approach to exploitation and may be the beginning of a complex process adopted by abusers. Grooming can be defined as developing the trust of a young person or his or her family in order to engage in illegal sexual activity or for others to engage in illegal sexual activity with that child or young person

Thismonkeysgonetodevon · 21/06/2019 10:39

TheInebriati Thanks for this. I will pass it on to the school.

Thismonkeysgonetodevon · 21/06/2019 10:43

So just to be clear, the NSPCC have subtly removed safeguarding advice around grooming?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 22/06/2019 10:12

Wonder if MNHQ would take this up as a campaign? Solely to get the wording of the definition of child sexual abuse at NSPCC changed. To reflect the wording that the CPS uses.

What a great idea Popchyk. I would definitely be in a favour of MN running a campaign on this. Perfect fit - a site by parents for parents is of course going to want to hold the NSPCC to account over getting child safeguarding right. Which they clearly are not at the moment.

LangCleg · 22/06/2019 10:14

So just to be clear, the NSPCC have subtly removed safeguarding advice around grooming?

Yes.

LangCleg · 22/06/2019 10:15

Wonder if MNHQ would take this up as a campaign? Solely to get the wording of the definition of child sexual abuse at NSPCC changed. To reflect the wording that the CPS uses.

I second this as a brilliant idea! Site stuff thread?

Oldstyle · 22/06/2019 11:42

Wonder if MNHQ would take this up as a campaign? Solely to get the wording of the definition of child sexual abuse at NSPCC changed. To reflect the wording that the CPS uses.

Oh yes please. How do we make this happen?

ScrimshawTheSecond · 22/06/2019 18:48

Hm. Great idea. Who holds the NSPCC to account?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/06/2019 09:02

According to the Mirror (sorry), rubberman has been suspended, and the charities commission are having a wee look at the NSPCC.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nspcc-charity-worker-probed-over-16783503

JessicaWakefieldSV · 23/06/2019 09:03

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Oh that’s interesting. No reporting of it elsewhere?

Popchyk · 23/06/2019 11:08

Oh, RollonFriday covered the whole thing. Excellent.

They even had a screenshot of the NSPCC telling others to report those people who were raising safeguarding concerns to Twitter.

Comments beneath the article are generally pretty good. Most people get the concerns.

Mumfun · 23/06/2019 13:54

Yes would definitely want MNHQ to take this up as a campaign. I am deeply concerned about the culture at the NSPCC

hipsterfun · 23/06/2019 14:43

NSPCC slams ‘disdain’ shown by Ramsgate sex attacker Emily Sweetland

Sweetland was referred to as ‘he’ during court proceedings.

Investigating officer Detective Constable Daniel Hodgson seems to have avoided using pronouns.

NSPCC spokesperson, otoh, said “Sweetland has shown nothing but disdain for her victims in court...”

Article concludes:

Some 120 women and girls were found guilty of sex offences including rape and sexual assault in 2016, according to figures from the Ministry of Justice. That is more than double the 48 female convictions in 2006.

Hmm
ChickenonaMug · 23/06/2019 15:03

I think that Sweetland is a female who is now identifying as male. Swetland is in a female prison, I believe. It is interesting that the court chose to refer to ES as a 'he' but the NSPCC used 'her'.

ChickenonaMug · 23/06/2019 19:03

It seems that Sarah Phillimore and the journalist Alan Selby have managed to get this quote added back into the Mirror article.

"Family law barrister Sarah Phillimore added: "The story here is not what a man did or didn't do in the toilets at work.

The story here is that the NSPCC - a charity with enormous power, influence and statutory powers to bring proceedings under the Children Act 1989 - not only failed to respond to legitimate concerns about such allegations but much worse than than that; told the people raising concerns they were 'bullies', and encouraged an atmosphere where others accused them of homophobia or bigotry.

"The implications here for keeping children safe are obvious and serious. No one is above scrutiny.

"The NSPCC have behaved very badly and their trustees need to be asking some hard questions about to whom they are entrusting their social media account."

Thank you so much Sarah and Alan. Brilliant work.

MrsJamin · 26/06/2019 14:42

What the hell?
prideinlondon.org/news-and-views/statement-on-nspccs-participation-in-the-parade/
Statement on NSPCC’s participation in the parade
General - 25 Jun 2019
We are aware of questions surrounding the NSPCC's presence in the Pride in London Parade. First and foremost, we would like to make it clear that everyone here at Pride in London stands with Munroe one hundred per cent, and we will continue to do all we can to support LGBT+ young people and protect their access to vital services.

Our transgender siblings need solidarity from the LGBT+ community and allies now more than ever, and we believe the actions of the NSPCC directors have brought division, bullying and bigotry to our doorstep. We welcomed the letter from 148 NSPCC staff who spoke out against this behaviour, many of whom are part of the group looking to march at Pride.

After careful consideration and discussions with the NSPCC and Munroe, all parties have agreed that now is a time for healing. The NSPCC board has agreed to take the following steps in the right direction:

Releasing a further statement reiterating their understanding of having handled things badly, and acknowledging the impact on staff and the community

Making a public commitment to LGBT+ young people, and rejecting anti-trans behaviours online and in the media

Establishing a dialogue with LGBT+ organisations such as Stonewall to understand how best to heal the pain caused to staff as well as build bridges with the community

Hosting a stall at Pride in London which will be attended by senior NSPCC leaders to allow people at the event to raise any concerns

Based on the NSPCC making the above commitments, we have decided to allow their group to keep their place in the Parade. To deny their staff - many of whom share our core values - the opportunity to march and protest would not be the right decision. We ask for support from you, the community, to respect the staff group's place in the Parade.

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