Beauty regime burdens

[Sunkisses]

Given recent threads on make up and false nails that have produced much debate and defensiveness, I thought a thread highlighting all the ever more elaborate and costly things and products women are expected to do to their appearance now could be illuminating. Particularly new things, or things that have become a lot more mainstream. Men are not expected to 'groom' and spend so much time/money on their appearance, and many women think just because they 'choose' to, it's not a feminist issue. It is, particularly the messages we send our daughters that our purpose is to be decorative. Things like:
Push up bras
Leg hair removal
Pubic hair removal, especially waxing and Brazilians - ouch
Underarm hair removal
False eyelashes
Eyebrow threading
Hair that costs a fortune (highlights etc)
Body contouring underwear
Botox and fillers
Plastic surgery like breast implants
Hair extensions
Fake tan
False fingernails

www.hrgrapevine.com/content/article/2016-12-05-lawyers-debate-discrimination-lawsuits-over-dorchester-memo

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/instagram-model-hairy-legs-rape-threats-arvida-bystr-m-a7987496.html

Lots of women I've known find it gross when men shave their legs and find it way more aesthetically pleasing for their male partners to have hairy legs.

It wasn't until I lurked on a male dominated forum that I realised what grooming men are expected to do.
Nothing on the scale of women of course, but a lot of them were concerned about pubic hair removal because: "girls don't like hair", "girls won't perform oral if you have hair", "girls will laugh and tell their mates if you have hair".
I must assume it's an age thing, because males in my generation never removed all pubic hair.
I surprising amount of them removed hair from back and chest, but rarely legs and arms.
Weird how "society" dictates what is acceptable and what isn't and how it changes with time.

"Logically by this reasoning the best solution would be if everyone wore the niqab."

You'd still have to look pretty for your husband, if you had one.
In some countries where women's faces are covered in public, there's heavy use of makeup, sexy underwear, etc. The pressures wouldn't necessarily all disappear.

The most genderless clothing I can think of would be those Maoist uniforms.

"Well slightly changing the subject, but eating healthily is delicious and junk food generally tastes foul. "

I think millions of people around the world would disagree with you there!

Jeans and T-shirt, jeans and jumper when it's cold are pretty genderless, given both sexes can wear them without comment or judgement.

Lots of women I've known find it gross when men shave their legs and find it way more aesthetically pleasing for their male partners to have hairy legs.

Yeah, I have to say this also does gross me out, which is very unfair I am sure.

I've encountered the male shaving body hair thing though, it does like someone else said seem to be the younger generation. Though I used to have a male friend years ago who was quite a ladies man and he told me at one point he'd started shaving his balls, and I said, why the heck would you do that, and wouldn't it be kind of tricky? He never enlightened me about the technique but he said women really liked it.

I only shave what's needed (legs for a skirt but only with no tights in summer), armpits for a sleeveless top, again only in summer.

I HATE wasting time on these things. I have a toddler, a full time job and other hobbies and I like to spend the little time I get to myself on those.

My industry is also male (geek)-dominated, the only women who wear high heels are the HR, the others are free to go around in t-shirt, jeans and trainers and that makes me so happy.

This causes however endless arguments with my 'D'M who lives abroad, always perfectly groomed, who likes to tell me how I always look scruffy and ugly. So I felt forced to do many things on your list before travelling to my country of origin last month for a week, just to shut her up.

DH likes me to do stuff for special occasions, but doesn't expect anything day by day and doesn't care much. That's one of the reasons why I love him so much!

Jeans and T-shirt, jeans and jumper when it's cold are pretty genderless, given both sexes can wear them without comment or judgement

Why would I want to restrict myself to wearing t- shirts and jumpers. I like gendered clothes.

I shave my legs as I don't like hairy legs, I shave my armpits for hygiene purposes. I have a fake tan because it makes me glow, I have hair extensions as I have very thin hair, I get my face threaded every month, however I would never get Botox or fillers of any kind done. Plastic surgery, never.

any "friend" who would be annoyed about how you look in photos isn't worth it.

I posted on a thread a while ago about whether or not I could be bothered with what I look like. All my friends do bother and work means certain pressure.

I decided not to bother. I certainly would look "better" with make up etc on but I just feel depressed when I see how much is expected of women now and I thought fuck it, I'm not going to be part of that.

Just thinking back to the first post, having read all of this the other thing that strikes me about the beauty burden women are expected to take on is the amount of thinking time that goes in to how women present themselves. For most occasions there is a standard way for a man to dress and no expectation that he wears something new each time- for example- wedding=suit, business meeting= suit,interview=suit, black tie event=dinner suit. For women there are always numerous subtle ways that she could get the dress code 'wrong' eg. what colours are acceptable for a wedding, should she wear a long ball gown to the black tie event or is a short dress OK, is the dress she's chosen acceptable for her age, is the neckline too revealing/too frumpy, will she be expected to wear a business suit to an interview or will that be seen as too much, if she doesn't will she be seen as too informal, will what she has chosen be suitable for the weather, what shoes should she wear etc etc.

The same goes for the amount of time (and money) taken for grooming for most men (or at least the ones I know). A man can walk in to a barbers shop and come our within 15-20 mins with his hair cut. A woman needs to make an appointment weeks in advance, answer numerous questions about what she wants doing and try to dodge the 'upsell' of colours/treatments etc, have her hair washed before cutting and blow dried after (again with numerous choices for how). The whole process takes far more time than for a man. I know that arguably most women have a more complicated hair cut but I personally have a very simple cut but need it to be trimmed regularly yet I cannot find any way of just dropping in somewhere to snip a few mm off the fringe and length every few weeks.

lovely yes, I opted out of those things by now just wearing a tux jacket etc when I go to dos.

re haircut, usually mum or sis do mine, or I do it myself sometimes, but if it needs a professional, then I find there are £10 haircuts around for women. Are you in London by any chance? I think these are on the increase as more women realise there's no need to pay a fortune for someone to just trim split ends. Takes about 15 mins, it's brilliant.

I don't know Lass, why would you? Only you can answer your own personal preferences.

May I please throw in another element that has really concerned me in recent times thanks to popularization from the Kardashians and similar. Waist training. A bullshit phrase for modern day tight lacing/corsetry. I thought that shit had gone out with the 16th century but apparently not. So damaging in so many ways.

I think the body hair/ makeup preference (for women) thing goes back to health in a lot of ways. Often people who wear makeup a lot will say they look ill without it, or get asked if they're ill. For body hair, see literally any thread in AIBU on the subject for hundreds of people insisting it either is, or makes you look, dirty. Even on this thread someone has said they shave their armpits for hygiene reasons. I don't shave my armpits and my hygiene is just fine. No one thinks men look dirty or unhygienic for having body hair so clearly there's nothing intrinsic about hair in that connection, it's just female hair. So I wonder if the strong aesthetic preference is less a true aesthetic preference in the sense of seeing "natural" female bodies as neutral but hairless female bodies as aesthetically nicer, and more to do with a deeper feeling that natural female bodies are dirty and changes need to be made to bring them up to a neutral position. Shaved female bodies aren't seen as special and beautiful in the way that, say, kardashian style hourglass figures currently are, they're just seen as the default, almost as if shaving is the natural state and we all just grow hair as part of a female defect. I think the idea that women are born wrong and need to be corrected runs quite deep. See also ideas of original sin/ menstruation and child bearing being "curses" and "punishments".

Tangentially I would also connect this to the current queer academic trend for transing women in literature/ art/ history based on the presentation of their body hair - frida kahlo, the stories of saints who grew beards, Whittle's search for "whispy beards" in classical art etc.

I do think there is more pressure for young girls/women now than when I was younger, and I'm only in my 30s.

I teach teenagers (in SE Asia, mixed nationalities but many Asian students and some differences in 'beauty standards'). Skin whitening is so prevalent that I have to pay extra attention when buying bog standard toiletries in order to avoid buying bleaches, rather than actively seeking them out.

Recently we were talking about what people wore in Shakespearean England and one of the girls actually couldn't comprehend the fact that people must have had sex in those days despite women having body hair. Genuinely couldn't believe it.

I agree with previous comments about androgyny being so much more acceptable a couple of decades ago, without any questioning of 'gender'.

Interestingly, despite being a very conservative culture, the stereotypical 'style' of a butch lesbian is acceptable here (and common) and this doesn't lead to questions about gender (although it does presume sexuality).

I teach a boy who I thought at first was a girl, who has longer hair and an effeminate bearing and voice. He socialises with girls (and, worryingly, competes with them over being slim etc... that's a whole different concern). But nobody questions his sex. He's a boy. And this is in a country famous for its ladyboys.

Think I've gone off topic a bit but it is interesting.

I saw underarm whitening was mentioned earlier. Not sure if anyone has mentioned anal bleaching?!! Who knew that was a thing?!!

re the looking ill

I had a woman boss tell me to put concealer under my eyes once.

I think we don't really know what women look like without makeup, certainly in the workplace.

For most occasions there is a standard way for a man to dress and no expectation that he wears something new each time- for example- wedding=suit, business meeting= suit,interview=suit, black tie event=dinner suit. For women there are always numerous subtle ways that she could get the dress code 'wrong'

Oh my goodness, yes.

And what makes it even more difficult is that it is becoming nigh on impossible to purchase reasonable formal "occasion" clothing if you are female.

DH and I have just taken on a formal representative role in our area. For DH, this is a question of one black lounge suit and coat, and possibly one evening suit, with one pair of oxfords and a one decent white shirt.

For me, it has meant four day dresses with appropriate jackets, bags, and shoes and two hats so far. To do the whole thing cheaply, I'm scrutinising the stock at New Look and online sales sections, borrowing hats from my mother (who is in her 70s), and even after burrowing through online shopping site after site, I only found one yes, one -- appropriate cream jacket at a reasonable price to make the whole thing work.

Then it's the hair and the nails and the tights and the appropriate makeup (and the appropriate bra) ...the amount of effort involved is bonkers.

My mind just keeps flickering back to Germaine Greer's comment where she says that this is all unpaid work. The shaving of legs = work. The grooming of nails and hair = work.

And to be honest, I'm getting cross about it all. And that crossness is opening my eyes to other unreasonable expectations.

Like fucking bikinis and swimsuits. If I want to take my toddler swimming, I have to ensure that I plan to shave my bikini line the evening before. I can't be spontaneous about it. I have to plan, plan, plan for everything, and it pisses me off no end. So I did a cursory look for a swim set that had shorts, and the only thing on figleaves with shorts was bloody £96.

And that is the problem, to my mind: unreasonable expectations.

To put a figure on it, I totted up how much time it has taken me in my life thus far to shave my arm pits. Presuming two minutes three times a week for 30 years, I worked out I have spent 156 hours of my life yes, nearly an entire week just shaving under my arms.

I dread to think what the figure would be if I included shaving my legs as well.

Packing have you considered doing the tux jacket thing? You will still look fine for the role I hope?

If you are not a trousers person, then what about the same dress for all the events? I can't see why anyone would be offended or annoyed or whatever. You will get some people who want to be critical but just say "DH wears the same thing every time".

Another thought about all this, what truly annoys me about the beauty regime (after being annoyed about the time, thought, money and double standards involved), is not just the expectation that we should do all this, but the absolute con that we should ENJOY it as well.
I hate the way getting manis and pedis is sold (to an increasingly young audience) as something to actually enjoy. That it's somehow quality, enjoyable "me time". ARGHHHHHH

@RosaWaiting- I'm not in London I'm afraid, but a rather small semi rural town. I am am crap at styling my hair so wouldn't dare risk cutting it myself so as I have not yet managed to befriend a hairdresser I'm stuck with paying £££ and spending hours attempting to make small talk and feeling embarrassed to answer questions about my haircair 'routine'just for a trim or having hair like cousin it.

@PackingSoap- ah yes, the inequality of swimwear. It always irritates me that on holiday men can lounge around the pool and swim etc in comfy looking shorts that are long enough to cover everything. Yet women and girls are expected to wear skimpy items that necessitate shaving and even if that's not a problem put us at constant risk of showing more than we want to if we dare to actually move about. In recent years I have discovered the 'swimdress'- which at least covers a bit more of the groin/bum area so I can walk around without being paranoid that I may have my pants up my bum or worse. But I have recently lost quite a lot of weight (for health reasons) and now it seems this item is only for the larger women. I did mention this to DH and he pointed out that speedo swimming trunks for men are just as skimpy as bikinis. Then I asked him how often he has seen anyone wearing them on a family holiday and whether he would like to stroll around the pool in them this year. I think he got the point.

green I'm in an outer London burb ....thinking about it, the ones here have no web presence or anything, so maybe ask around if anyone knows one.

also if you have a not-posh men's barber, ask them if they will do a dry cut for a reasonable price.

Rosa

It's the type of event as well that's an issue.

A man can wear a black lounge suit for an afternoon tea, a dinner, a civic day event, an awards ceremony, an evening performance, Remembrance Sunday, a Christmas party, a church service, a funeral, pretty much anything that's formal.

But women can't, as a rule. I can't wear what I would wear to our Remembrance Sunday ceremonies to a charity afternoon tea with our local dementia groups. And the thing is you have to be mindful that the event is for those people, not yourself; you have a duty to them to appear appropriately, particularly if those people have gone to a lot of effort themselves. Otherwise, people can get very offended (and upset, particularly if they are elderly).

A very famous example would be the annual furor over poppy-wearing on TV and politicians that do not wear appropriate clothing at The Cenotaph on Whitehall. It is best just to avoid all of that by doing the socially and culturally appropriate thing.

But therein is the bind! The socially and culturally appropriate thing is far more work for women than men.

TheHodge- is not just the expectation that we should do all this, but the absolute con that we should ENJOY it as well.

Exactly. Having our hair, nails, legs etc beautified is somehow supposed to be relaxing and indulgent 'me' time. Not to mention shopping for clothes, shoes, makup etc which we all know is every woman's favourite hobby. So all the extra time we spend conforming to social expectations, not to mention trying to work out what is appropriate for any given occasion and find one that fits us, is actually a treat for us. And when we inevitably take longer shopping/at the hairdressers etc and need more shoes/clothes than men they make jokes about it, as if we do this because we just get carried away with the FUN of it all.

I distinctly remember when my DC1 was small, I was breastfeeding and had very little sleep for weeks. My MIL made me an appointment for a manicure and said she was taking me there and then shopping for a few hours so I could have a break. I know she thought she was doing something nice but I just wanted to scream that it would just be more shit to do and the opposite of a break.

Packing "I can't wear what I would wear to our Remembrance Sunday ceremonies to a charity afternoon tea with our local dementia groups"

oh. I have to say, I would just have one suit for all. Is it really that big a deal for the people benefitting or is it the people who run these things who would be judgey?

I literally haven't worn a skirt or dress for about 20 years. I do work the odd charity event but I'm not important, IYSWIM

I am not someone who would be photographed for the local paper etc. But quite honestly I am at a loss to see how a nice suit for both those occasions would be a problem, unless it's the criticism of snobby types that you are dealing with.

sorry to digress, but I talked a lot with my late father about charity work options and some of the ones he was involved with seemed to be so stuffy, I rejected them I'm afraid!

I am always amazed when someone suggests some kind of beauty treatment as pampering. Apart from not enjoying it, I feel it's upholding something I don't wish to participate in, and also not something I would spend money on.