Beauty regime burdens

[Sunkisses]

Given recent threads on make up and false nails that have produced much debate and defensiveness, I thought a thread highlighting all the ever more elaborate and costly things and products women are expected to do to their appearance now could be illuminating. Particularly new things, or things that have become a lot more mainstream. Men are not expected to 'groom' and spend so much time/money on their appearance, and many women think just because they 'choose' to, it's not a feminist issue. It is, particularly the messages we send our daughters that our purpose is to be decorative. Things like:
Push up bras
Leg hair removal
Pubic hair removal, especially waxing and Brazilians - ouch
Underarm hair removal
False eyelashes
Eyebrow threading
Hair that costs a fortune (highlights etc)
Body contouring underwear
Botox and fillers
Plastic surgery like breast implants
Hair extensions
Fake tan
False fingernails

I think on a personal and family-based level it is good to try to destroy the beauty myth, but we should be really careful about judging others on appearance alone.

Some really interesting women come plastered in makeup and dressed up to the nines. My daughter, for example. She doesn't take after me at all, except that she is a deep thinker. Unfortunately she gets written off by so many of her peers because she doesn't fit easily into any of the boxes based on outward appearance that everyone creates.

Grab your “friend” sounds utter shite .. go to the wedding, wear what you like,enjoy your beautiful baby...then slowly ditch her.

Interesting thread.

I went to super drug at the weekend to pick up a bottle of nail varnish and a brown mascara, and I was dazed by the sheer amount of powders and creams for sale these days. I could not work out what most of it was for.

There seemed to be a huge section for eyebrows: pencils, powders, liners, setting stuff... all for two strips of hair above your eyes.

But here's the thing. I couldn't find a brown mascara at all. And there was only one bottle across all the ranges of a pearl nude varnish.

It was as though makeup is now about Instagram or nothing. There's no longer anything in-between makeup-free and "theatrical".

Yes, the amount of the weird stuff available is crazy.

The only thing I wear regularly is a tinted moisturiser with sunscreen. I like the moisturiser and suncreen for practical reasons, and the tinted bit I guess because I am a bit vain, but also lazy and it adds no extra work when they are all combined.
Last time I went to buy some I had a really difficult time finding anything, there were so many base layers and colour correctors and pore fillers.

The amount of choice these days is ridiculous. Unless our faces have grown to size of a satellite dish, where does it all go?

I keep reading posts (on this thread and the school playground version of it on the false nails thread) mentioning long hair on women. I'm going to presume that the intentions behind linking it to porn and the patriarchy come from a none judgemental place. That women don't want to see other women feel limited by the hair style that they choose. But to offer another explanations of why some of us like to wear our hair long, here's some of my reasons:

I'm skint and hairdressers cost money I haven't got.
I wash my hair (no shampoo) once a week, brush it and stick it up in a bun that gets messier as the week progresses. I leave my hair tied up in the same bun all week which is super time saving.
I love the feel of it down my naked back and brushing it out is calming and meditative.
On a windy day, I love to go out on a walk with my hair flying around like a crazy medusa! (I let it down specially).
My son loved to play with my long hair in the baths we shared. He used to tangle his toys up in it so that they could rescue each other.
It's taken a long time coming but I now love my body. In my youth I would shave my hair off as a self loathing gesture (it was always short :(). My long hair now is a sign of my self care, acceptance and love. It's part of me and I would no more cut it off than any other part of my body.

(Except I shave my legs and pluck my chin because I do live in a patriarchy and I've lost the guts not to do this for the time being.)

There is noting wrong with long hair. IN a lot of ways it can be easier than short, which needs to be cut more often. I think people find it notable that there is so little variation in hairstyles when it used to be common. Remember when Princess Diana was a beauty icon - I had that haircut as a kid, it was very popular. And no one thought it was masculine.

I am somewhat wondering though if it isn't equally as problematic to be telling people that they should be able to express themselves through what they wear, as if otherwise they are inauthentic. I wonder if it hasn't created a sense that your sense of style or what you like to wear is more important than it really is, leading to some of this "internal essence" stuff.

Yep, nothing wrong with long hair.

There's something wrong if you want to be found attractive but are led to think, by our media etc that no one will find you attractive if you cut it so you don't, even though you would actually much rather have short hair. Or, you cut it to self harm and deny yourself that perceived attractiveness. That's a mess.

If you've read any of the 'nail' thread you'll see it's incredibly problematic to pass any kind of comment on how women choose to express themselves and to the discuss the possible reasons why.

There's definitely a feminist issue in there but it's so difficult to talk about it as so many people take such offence at having what they are convinced as their uninfluenced personal preferences questioned.

I think part of it is difficult because we have preferences and such even outside of a problem. THat sounds confused!

What I mean is this. Imagine a scenario in which men and women were treated in the same way, or at least in an equal way. And then lets say we imagine it so that people are not being asked to do anything that is really problematic, like surgery, or hair dye, or whatever.

People would still, I think, have the desire to decorate, to do something to mark important occasions, they will still want to look attractive and nice.

And it is really difficult to think that looking nice is some terrible problem. In fact I would say there is some sense where people who really don't care about it at all usually have some deeper problems like depression.

It's also impossible to imagine a society without social norms. So if one thing is seen as usual, something else is going to seem weird and maybe unattractive. You can't have a society without any expectations about clothing/grooming, unless you have one without culture, and that is impossible.

So if we are stuck with culture, and we are stuck with people wanting to look nice, even in an ideal world, how do we draw a line around that?

Remember when Princess Diana was a beauty icon - I had that haircut as a kid, it was very popular

I guess the 60s and 70s passed you all by? Loads of young women had long straight, parted in the middle hair.

The haircut you describe requires far more attention than my very long straight hair did. It needed a trim along the bottom with the kitchen shears every now and then.

I was thinking about the poster earlier who argued that the magic marker eyebrows and tonnes of slap look was more democratic as it makes everyone look the same whether or not they are stunning to begin with.

Logically by this reasoning the best solution would be if everyone wore the niqab.

I guess the 60s and 70s passed you all by? Loads of young women had long straight, parted in the middle hair.

I didn't say anything about having a problem with long hair, in fact I said it was fine. I don't understand what your point is.

There's definitely a feminist issue in there but it's so difficult to talk about it as so many people take such offence at having what they are convinced as their uninfluenced personal preferences questioned.

This is true of so many issues - giving up work to be a SAHM/ "housewife", changing your name on marriage, giving the children their fathers surname etc. It's hard interrogating our choices, especially if they're choices that maybe we aren't actually 100% comfortable with. I gave up my degree when I had my son - I spent years pushing down the resentment and telling myself it was my own free choice to have done that. It was MN and FWR that made me finally face the fact that my "choice" had been made in the context of substantial pressure from my father, friends, lecturers, and just my own internalised misogyny about what a good mother "should" do. Once I started to analyse my life through that lens I was finally able to start hearing the difference between my own voice and thoughts, and those put there by patriarchy. The idea that we maybe aren't all quite as free as we think we are can be a hard one to stomach - hence the appeal of liberal feminism.

So if we are stuck with culture, and we are stuck with people wanting to look nice, even in an ideal world, how do we draw a line around that?

My ideal would be to see beauty linked only to health. Whenever I catch myself thinking "urgh, my stomach" I follow it up by thinking "...looks exactly normal for someone with 2 kids in her 30s". Or "urgh my legs... both work absolutely fine, which is what they're for". My old lecturer used to go on about the psychosexual function of hair and skin, but I would like to see these things admired (if we must) for being actual indicators of health rather than canvasses for simulating the appearance of health. So, skin that is actually healthy because it is well cared for through diet, hydration, cleansing etc, rather than just appearing healthy through the application of makeup. I'd like to see a world where women (and men) were admired for their beauty relative to their own age group as well. Where being an attractive woman in your 40s meant looking good for your 40s not attempting to look 10 years younger. I'd like to see an appreciation of natural body variation as well, where stretch marks and c section scars and body hair and freckles and wonky noses were all valued over homogeny of appearance.

I know, I know - "my utopian pipe dream is valid"

I didn't say anything about having a problem with long hair, in fact I said it was fine. I don't understand what your point is

Yes you did say long hair was ok sorry. It was someone else moaning about it as if long hair was a new phenomenon. Including the comment below.Although long straight hair is far easier to manage than the Princess Di styles.

So when did that become obligatory? What made it obligatory? Porn? As with everything else? The 60s and 70s clearly passed this poster by.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving "...now we're sharing the same dream"

I practically never comment on peoples appearance and if I do it's to say something practical. I snuggle my niece and tell her I think her skin is beautiful for holding all her bones in so well. She thinks it's hilarious.

Small things that make me happier.

That's lovely barelove.

Oh balls.

I love fashion, I always have. It makes my heart beat faster. I saw it as an art form really (I actually don't wear it currently, too fat - mostly fine with that)

But it's probably not ok, is it. It probably is a feminist issue. And I am a feminist, I care passionately about women being able to live their best life.

And yet I also want to be pretty ...

And I want to teach my son that women don't have to do any of this bullshit ..

And yet he's 2 and sees me put make up everyday and when he asks I can't give him a valid reason for why I do it and daddy doesn't

But I don't want to stop wearing make up....

Oh my head .. I can't make sense of who I am ..

As a man I don’t expect most of this stuff and find the Essex girl type regime very unattractive. Not to be completely woke and hypocritical I’m not a fan of hairy legs and arms on women. I suppose I’m just conditioned to not like it and women have been doing this for a long time now. But the eyebrows, heavy make up, big lips and nail stuff is a new phenomenon and I just don’t find it attractive on a personal level and most of my mates feel the same. It’s one of those ones where it’s the women driving it rather than the blokes

One example I could come up with is Katie Price / Jordan who when initially hit the public eye as page 3 model was genuinely a really nice pretty girl in my eyes and then ruined herself with gigantic fake tits and all the other things discussed like lip fillers etc

I hate this part of society. I've always felt judged on my looks above anything else. That shouldn't be right. Why do we as a society look up to page 3 models or wags rather than women that have actually done important things like Malala etc
I have young adult DDs and it makes me sad he pressure on them is even worse than in my day. I was called ugly as a teen by many teenage boys. It was very humiliating. That's when I started wearing make up..

I’m not an expert on make up but always preferred my girlfriend make up light compared to when she dolled herself up for a girls night out. I’m sure she wasn’t make up free completely when I found her more attractive but wasn’t particularly noticeable if she was wearing it compared to looking like Michael Jackson. And she thought the latter was dressing up and making an effort to look good - nuts

I know, I know - "my utopian pipe dream is valid"

I don't think it's invalid, or even totally a pipe dream. I think we've moved closer and farther away from what you describe at various times, so its not like there is nothing to be done around it.

To some extent, yeah, even if we know real glowing skin is a sign of health, there may always be some pull towards creating that artificially if you haven't lucked out in that department. Even the natural "hippy" look could actually be a lot of work - my mother used to tell me about trying to iron her hair. But we instead seem to put a lot of value on explicit artificiality. Maybe as a sign of wealth?

I think in some ways our cultural landscape isn't well suited to creating that kind of sense of valuing what is more natural and age appropriate though. We have a disordered way of thinking about youth and age for one thing. All the youth culture of the 20th century has been n many ways toxic, and we often aren't willing to admit it. We might see it in fashion, but its in other things as well, I think for example of the comments you see about how old people voted to leave the EU and they are just too old to understand or too selfish or too bigoted. I don't think I've ever heard someone say, well, maybe there is something that older people see in this that requires more experience, not even as a possibility. It's just taken for granted that youth is progressive and sees the way of the future more clearly.

I would also say that putting a rein on people and societies more base impulses usually seems to require some kind of accepted set of values around the those impulses. If you don't want a population that puts a lot of emphasis on personal appearance, vanity if you like, you need to discourage it in the culture and encourage and support modesty. And that kind of passing on of social values is usually done through things like common stories, myths, social practices, taboos.

I don't know if we have a lo of social capital of the right kind. We try and promote ideas in school when we want to get kids to believe them but generally I don't think its effective. Especially not when there is so much pushing them in the other direction.

I suppose people like to make the best of themselves, and the aesthetic changes all the time. However, the title of the thread contains the word burden. That is the crux. Lots of people (mainly women) go through convoluted regimes to maintain something that conforms with what society expects. And that becomes burdensome, time consuming, ultimately pointless and bloody expensive. We talk about the gender pay gap but if you factor in all the stuff that we do to "improve" ourselves, that gap is actually a lot wider.

Everybody can opt out of this in minor (don't shave your bits, pits or legs) or major ways (never wash - not recommended).

Really despair about the amount of shite young women are sticking on themselves, or paying for unneeded cosmetic procedures. It's a weird aesthetic and hopefully one that will fall out of fashion soon.

To some people make up/cosmetic surgery etc is a hobby. To others it is masking a lot of self loathing. Most of us fall in between. As you get older you seem to need to do more, but from my own experience it matters less. I do less now - and going through a convoluted regime of grooming would indeed be a burden.

Why do we as a society look up to page 3 models or wags rather than women that have actually done important things like Malala etc

Eh? Is this comment meant to be a joke? Nobody looks up to page 3 girls (do they still exist?) or WAGS. The term WAG is so obviously intended to be dismissive. Malala has a Nobel prize.