Can we start an anti "nail" campaign?

[2rebecca]

As a GP who frequently washes her hands, allotment owner and instrument player I really hate the trend for women to have immaculate nails that cost a fortune, scratch people and mean women can't do anything useful. Where t f did this horrible trend come from and how do we give women back the use of their wonderful hands?

When people behave badly, do you not want to know why? As I said - there is a huge difference between explanation and excuse.

As I said - there is a huge difference between explanation and excuse

Can you really not see that by explaining it away as the patriarchy though you're reducing women to unthinking and only doing what they're told or expected of them? You're excusing them by default.
What the hell is wrong with a woman wanting to wear heels or makeup anyway? If they like the feminine look FOR THEM?!
No-one else.
I mean, I don't do either but I certainly don't judge others who do.

“Think about it, if you let women off the hook because of patriarchy then you have to do the same for men too.“
I don’t let women off the hook. And at no point have I said I do- rather the opposite. And men are victims of the patriarchy too. Once again- no excuse. But explanation, so maybe we can try not to perpetuate it in the next generation.

I think saying that long acrylics aren’t practical is true though, it’s not really an insult. I’ve had them myself and they’ve always chipped the moment I’ve done pretty much anything with my hands, and that’s from several different salons. And it’s certainly true that some professions and nails just don’t mix because they are considered unhygienic. Mine is one (catering). But not everyone does lots of practical things and not everyone works in nursing or catering. Personal insults about a specific posters nails I didn’t see but of course that’s rude and not on.

I don’t let women off the hook

You excuse their behaviour though by saying that the reason they are being nasty is "because patriarchy."

Tinyteatime

It wasn't just about saying they are impractical, it was the sneery tone and the looking down on people. At some point people were judged as being lower class, it was said that women of a certain race had them in order to intimidate people, women are shallow and many other insults.

You cannot have read the thread and missed them.

BertrandRussell

Honestly, what explanation? Is the patriarchy to blame for all insulting behaviour? Where for you, does personal responsibility kick in?

When people behave badly, do you not want to know why? As I said - there is a huge difference between explanation and excuse.

The explanation is that are nasty people.

I asked several times and may have missed the answer. but do you really believe women would be nasty in a matriachy?

I think saying that long acrylics aren’t practical is true though, it’s not really an insult.

If you bother reading the thread. You would see no one said 'impractical' was an insult. No woman who actually wears them said they are impractical and impractical doesnt mean it holds you back from a career you want.

You appear to have not seen alot. Because several posters have called women who have them done rude names.

You probably also missed the several racist comments also.

But I suspect you are just being disingenuous.

“You excuse their behaviour though by saying that the reason they are being nasty is "because patriarchy."“

I’m really sorry you read it like that. It’s not what I meant to say. I obviously expressed myself badly.

“I asked several times and may have missed the answer. but do you really believe women would be nasty in a matriachy?”

I don’t know. There are always nasty people. But I assume that in a matriarchy, if it was set up the way the patriarchy is, the people being exploited and manipulated would be men. So the particular sort of nastiness we’re talking about would be between men. But, as I said, I don’t know.

So it's not patriachy.

It's that some people are nasty. They would be nasty to other women regardless of the society.

Because they believe its ok to be nasty. I very much doubt the people on this thread who have posted nasty and degrading stuff about women, who also call themselves feminists, are not nasty and judgemental towards men too.

Some comments have been unpleasant, I think the worst have been deleted however I don’t feel the very few nasty comments deserve the amount of thread they’re getting. Most are interesting arguments put forward politely. I think the OP wasn’t intended as anything other than a bit of a rally against the latest beauty ‘trend’ that seems to have become ‘norm’ and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Trends change and the sooner the better for ones that many women (not all) find impractical, annoying, expensive. Take high heels. I’ve noticed in the last 5 years that the wearing of them in offices/workplaces that where once it would have been almost mandatory has really dropped off. I have friends who work in a variety of offices from the treasury to fashion houses and not a single one would dream of wearing heels to work, they mostly wear trainers. I don’t believe that most women given the choice would have chosen heels, because they are generally very uncomfortable, some would and do and that’s fine, and I know some still have to wear them in certain workplaces. It’s just good to open up the choices so that the more uncomfortable/expensive/impractical options aren’t considered the ‘norm’. I don’t think there’s any evil motive going on here,

Does anyone know how many nasty posts there actually were? There was one particularly unpleasant one early on from a well known poster and I didn’t read anything after that until a day or two later. It is a bit odd that we’re still talking about it even though everyone now posting agrees that it was not OK.

Some comments have been unpleasant, I think the worst have been deleted

You really haven't read the thread, have you?

Acrylic nails are not latest beauty trend. Neither are long nails. Nor are they or ever been 'the norm'.

And that's not what the OP was saying at all.

She feels long nails holds women back. That's quite clear.

BertrandRussell an exact count no.

But there was far more than one.

Does anyone know how many nasty posts there actually were?

Several personal attacks against a poster for their nails, other posters not personal attacks as such but judging other women for their choices and dismissing them all as mindless drones who can't think for themselves, and only like something because they've been "told" it's a good thing to like by the men.

But there was far more than one.

Much more. The reason the thread is so long because for once, the shit is being called out when it's usually left to slide.

“judging other women for their choices and dismissing them all as mindless drones who can't think for themselves, and only like something because they've been "told" it's a good thing to like by the men.”

Gosh. Nobody said that, did they?

BertrandRussell

There have been loads of nasty comments - apart from the OPs, there was the shallow one, the racist ones, the plastic clone and placemats who must have filled up a couple of pages on her own, and these are without looking back at the thread.

If you really want to know, why not read back yourself?

"clearly I'd like women to love themselves as they naturally are, which is amazing, but that's a matter of persuasion and discussion, not control

"You know, when men say "they would love women to love themselves as they naturally are, because it's amazing, and they are not trying to control me just persuade me" - I think "what patronising rubbish is that?". So in the interests of equality, I'm saying the same to to you.""

Yes it was clumsily phrased. I should have said "clearly I'd like women to love ourselves as we naturally are, which is amazing, but that's a matter of persuasion and discussion, not control". Men don't have any experience of the social pressures and opprobrium that women face about our looks, so it would be completely different if a man said something like that.

"Btw, citizens of the People's Republic of China would be highly offended if you said to them they are currently living in a totalitarian state. They dont. There is an arguement that they may live in an authoritarian regime."

Would they really? 1.5 million Chinese citizens are imprisoned in camps for "reeducation", I'm pretty sure they would disagree with you. Although I'm sure the Chinese men in power will be grateful for your defense of them, especially as you're doing it in the name of their oppressed citizens.

"Also, trying not to be picky, but there is no such thing as 'Korean women', there are South Korean women and North Korean women."

Maybe not trying to be picky, but still being picky. I posted a very interesting article about women in Korea rejecting and resisting beauty standards and that's all you can find to say in response? Still, you should probably have a word with Tacoma's Korean's Women's Association, who think they are Korean Women www.kwacares.org/. There's also The Korean Women's Development Insititute based in Seoul who think they are Korean women too eng.kwdi.re.kr/ All mistaken I presume.

And then there was the snobby "lower class" comments, the green fungus comments and the accusations that women with acrylic nails infect computer keyboards at work.

Gosh. Nobody said that, did they?

Erm, yes they did. I understand why you don't want to acknowledge that fact though.

Seeing as you're the one that's said repeatedly that women are victims of the patriarchy and are conditioned to like certain things.
So I can see why you won't see it, as you can't or won't.
Fair enough. You do you. Just don't speak for other women who are capable of liking things because THEY like them.
Not for anyone else.

I can. This is the list of nasty, belittling, comments that drippingwithsarcasm complied. And this is only up to page 9

and mean women can't do anything useful.

make it more difficult for women to actually do anything useful!

those hideous coloured talons are a useful marker for “probably shallow non feminist woman with whom I’d have nothing in common”, so quite handy really!

You can’t cook, garden, do basic childcare like changing nappies or have any hand hygiene to a fairly basic standard if you have on fake nails.

are women just there to look pretty or are we able to contribute a bit more than that by actually working with our hands??

I find it weird/confronting/off putting when I see women with inch long talons (it’s usually ethnic minorities to be perfectly frank though I’ll get strung up for saying so). My impression is that it’s intended to look threatening - and it is.

just looks wrong on woman wearing jeans and a T-shirt - fine if they are dressed up to go out but not on a rainy Saturday afternoon in the ballpark.*

Comments from the OP and other supporting her stance. As far as I'm concerned it's them ridiculing,shaming,shunning and belittling women. Reducing women and their lives and careers to the length of their nails.

And then there was the snobby "lower class" comments, the green fungus comments and the accusations that women with acrylic nails infect computer keyboards at work.

Don't forget the racist one, that was a belter - those pesky ethnic minorities with their intimidating fingernails