The 12th law of misogny

[Mamello]

Wise women of FWR please help me. Part of my work is to help women access support for their perinatal mental health (in pregnancy and up to a year post birth). I have been told, in a time of phenomenally tight resources, we must now start providing additional support for fathers because whereas only 10-15% of perinatal mothers suffer from post natal depression, 20% of fathers do (according to MIND). I'm not saying fathers don't suffer PND but studies have shown that it is often linked to the mothers mental heath and there is nothing about severity or that women don't just suffer from PND but also anxiety, psychosis etc. In addition the figures for fathers are based on self-report whereas those for mothers are based on midwife or health visitor assessment.
This is an example of one father's blog:

I was fortunate enough to never actually need the help when I had postnatal depression.……Besides, It’s not like I’d have the option to go to a mother and baby unit. Had it been my wife who had suffered then maybe she would’ve ended up in one of those units

isablog.co.uk/2018/05/11/dads-nhs-perinatal-mental-health/

And in another article:

In the UK, for example, the tradition of health visiting is heavily focused on mothers and children, and some health visitors are reluctant to address postnatal depression in men. As a result, fathers end up feeling overlooked following the birth of a child and their experiences rendered invisible.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/nhs-postnatal-depression-anxiety-mental-health-young-fathers-parent-support-a8668806.html

I want to keep fighting for better resources and support for women's mental health. Whilst there's good evidence that fathers do suffer post natal mental health problems I worry that this is just another reason to downgrade services for women and minimise their role in birthing and childbearing. I'd like to hear your take on this. Is this a feminist issue or AIBU?

I think if men need a service, fine, but not at the expense of hard won services for women, and not from the budget of women’s services. We have a hard enough time getting medical services to take our problems seriously, without doing a what about the menz.
Also it downgrades postnatal depression into a situational depression rather than a complex medical issue, if you suggest that what men are suffering is the same thing.

Surely if you help a woman’s partner (who may not even be Male) you are by default helping them.

I don't see an issue in father's getting additional support, it is not taking anything away from the mother as I'm assuming they are not stopping any support a woman gets.
It is an issue that needs more attention and I don't see a problem with it

Personal experience only but I have suffered depression only twice in my life. The first was PND and the second during a rapid menopause.

I am now fine, nowhere near depression, so put the two episodes down to fluctuating hormones. As in the sort of hormonal fluctuations that women have during pregnancy and post birth, or during menopause.

Men suffer depression for all sorts of reasons, but they need to be provided for seperately. Women around birth are very vulnerable, and interalia untreated PND can really affect a baby's life chances. The mans quote is seriously inappropriate. This is not some sort of competition about who is the most deserving, or the biggest victim. And health visitors are presumably not well equipped to support men, other than perhaps signpost them to a suitable place.

We have only recently recognised post natal depression as an illness. When I was a teenager, I remember my then-boyfriend's SIL losing both her children due to PND: the courts said she wasn't looking after them properly: PND was neither mentioned or considered.

I have never heard of a man attempting or committing suicide due to PND. I wish I could say the same for women.

It's interesting that the NHS website carries the claim that fathers and partners can suffer from PND, but the Royal Society of Psychologists makes it clear that this is a condition experienced by women who have had a baby.

FFS 🙄

AltogetherAndrews

Any provision for fathers would come out of the perinatal mental health budget. So less specifically for women.

No is a full sentence.

My husband definitely suffered some sort of depression / anxiety / difficulty directly relating to our son's birth and needed support or at the very least identification of its nature but not on your nelly should it be at the expense of women.

The only thing that would have helped would have been some joined up thinking asking him if he had any worries or concerns or asking me if I thought he had any worries - this would have opened a channel for me to talk and then point him in the right direction.

This is highly sensitive also as there are loop holes for abuse from a male partner; this should be separate, as I said only over lapping to highlight and inform a woman what symptoms there might be and then what he should do about it.

Support for new fathers who need it - good.

Providing that by using any of the already stretched budget for new mothers (which is what I infer from the OPs post), rather than additional funding - bad.

It should be treated as a separate thing.

I admit him getting support or a hv recognising his anxiety would have ultimately helped me as I was carrying the we get of it but treatment should be separately funded.

Do not take away the meagre support women get already.

Carrying the brunt of it.

Any intervention that supports the family as a unit is surely a good thing? If the dad is suffering from depression then that will also impact on the mum and possibly child too so it is important to help either parent.

However, any service that is suddenly required to treat many more patients surely needs more funding? As an addition to what support is offered to mothers then this should be welcomed. Instead of helping women then no, that can't be right.

A long time ago but DH very sadly knew someone who committed suicide a few days after his second child was born. There may well be a problem, and separate provision may well be needed. But the current budget is needed for women.

Sorry - I realise I haven't been clear. There is no new funding. We are being asked to provide for 'fathers' (and not 'partners' interestingly), out of the budget that has always been for maternal ie mothers mental health.

As with every service exclusively set up to meet a need that occurred for women, that hugely impacts with women....

it's being refocused to centre men. Women are very unfashionable.

Obviously men's health needs should be met under men's health needs, and their resources and their funding, but this is about the bigger picture going on. Note how 'progressive' and positively you will be viewed if you centre men when talking about a women's issue, and how quickly you will be quashed and corrected and showered with disapproval if you try to centre women.

Women's liberation movement needed now.

I can see why it would make sense to treat the mother and father together for something like this. I don't believe post natal depression is the same for men as fr women, but I do think that mental health issues around birth can be significant for men. If I were to think about how to approach this if funding wasn't an issue, I would say look at the family unit, it's likely to be more efficient and also the problems of the parents may be intertwined.

But anytime there are more people to serve you need more funding. I'd be pushing hard for other sources.

It's not on for services for men to be taken out of services meant for women surely that's a no-brainer?

Maternal postnatal depression MPND is one thing.
Paternal postal depression PPND is another thing.

It's great that there is more awareness of PPND, and great that more support should be made available, but MPND still needs to be supported to the same level.

If more support is needed for ppnd, more funding needs to be allocated.
Surely that's quite simple.

I agree that valuable resources shouldnt be taken away from women

I don’t doubt that men can get depressed after the birth of their baby and provision should be made, but not by taking existing funding away from women

Oh

And i think there is something wrong with the figures of 10/15 for women and 20 for men

No idea what but it doesn’t make sense (unless it can be explained by the self report thing...which i bet it can)

No, it shouldn't come out of the existing budget. I think the men that need it should be signposted towards existing services - not take resources away from women who have just given birth.

I do feel maternal pnd is a lot more common than has been suggested in the op, but women learn to pretend that things are not as bad as they are.
I found having a health visitor coming round was very distressing. If there had been more support, I may not have ended up in a mental hospital. A mother and baby unit was never considered as it would be too far away.

This is utterly ridiculous. Paternal PND is situational, and doesn't require specialist services. Help can be accessed via the GP/CMHT. It's no different on a psychiatric level than depression relating to job loss, bereavement, etc.

Maternal PND is a completely different issue and is related not only to situation but to the complex hormonal changes associated with birth. This does require timely input from specialist services.

I would fight incredibly hard with the LHB to refuse to minimise my service in order to provide for men in this situation

Have I got this right:

• the budget and service aimed at female users is being cut
• Funds are being reallocated to provide for men users
• The service providers of a female-centric practice are to provide mixed sex practice,
• men have not been consulted about what's proposed and whether it meets their needs

Hey there, lurking men. Don't you think that the powers that be should consult you instead of offering you the crumbs of a specialist women's service? Nothing about you without you and all that.

You know what - you are all very nice people! Much nicer than me! I think this is all about centring men. I think this is all about the 12th rule of misogyny - whatever women suffer, men suffer worse. I do think men get depressed but its the kind of depression that comes from being tired/having your world suddenly changed/worrying you're not up to the job/not having sex/not having your needs put first. Unlike for women who have metaphorically run several marathons, seen their hair fall out, had whacky hormones for months, wonder if they'll ever sit down properly again, wonder if they'll ever go to the toilet properly again, wonder if they'll cope with all that and a new young life etc. So I agree that men need help but not at women's expense or in women's spaces (again) or by being the centre of women's attention when she has other things to deal with!! (Sorry dads!)

Orchidoptic

mamello

I completely agree