The 12th law of misogny

[Mamello]

Wise women of FWR please help me. Part of my work is to help women access support for their perinatal mental health (in pregnancy and up to a year post birth). I have been told, in a time of phenomenally tight resources, we must now start providing additional support for fathers because whereas only 10-15% of perinatal mothers suffer from post natal depression, 20% of fathers do (according to MIND). I'm not saying fathers don't suffer PND but studies have shown that it is often linked to the mothers mental heath and there is nothing about severity or that women don't just suffer from PND but also anxiety, psychosis etc. In addition the figures for fathers are based on self-report whereas those for mothers are based on midwife or health visitor assessment.
This is an example of one father's blog:

I was fortunate enough to never actually need the help when I had postnatal depression.……Besides, It’s not like I’d have the option to go to a mother and baby unit. Had it been my wife who had suffered then maybe she would’ve ended up in one of those units

isablog.co.uk/2018/05/11/dads-nhs-perinatal-mental-health/

And in another article:

In the UK, for example, the tradition of health visiting is heavily focused on mothers and children, and some health visitors are reluctant to address postnatal depression in men. As a result, fathers end up feeling overlooked following the birth of a child and their experiences rendered invisible.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/nhs-postnatal-depression-anxiety-mental-health-young-fathers-parent-support-a8668806.html

I want to keep fighting for better resources and support for women's mental health. Whilst there's good evidence that fathers do suffer post natal mental health problems I worry that this is just another reason to downgrade services for women and minimise their role in birthing and childbearing. I'd like to hear your take on this. Is this a feminist issue or AIBU?

Stroopwaffel99,
Start your own "What about the men" thread, perhaps?
Yes, men need health services too, of course they do.
But men's services around maternity and childbirth should not be taking money and resources away from women's services.

Interestingly if you start a thread about addressing a need for men - or write an article, or do a piece of research - no one will ever try to refocus it with 'what about women'. Do that for women, and someone will always raise the issue of men while implying that talking just about the women's end of the issue and their needs is somehow selfish and wrong.

Very good article around from a researcher around somewhere who describes the strong difference in response to articles she focused on men's needs and the articles she focused on women's needs. Ingrained sexism. A game in which women lose.

where one sex is privileged in the degree of support they receive.

You what? Women are 'privileged' in the degree of support they receive around being pregnant/giving birth?

That will be because that's the only sex that can do it. That isn't a privilege, it's a medical need for resources and support. And men feeling they should be 'compensated' for not getting pregnancy services can go figure out how to compensate women for not getting medical care around erectile dysfunction and prostate issues.

Medicine - and being female - really isn't a case of 'but are we being FAIR'

Not sure it's helpful to frame this debate as two interest groups competing over limited resources. One party will always feel aggrieved.

I think it interesting to highlight men's experienced and MH issues in the wake of a new family. Rightly, the mother/baby unit is highly centred in our health care system. This is only right given the long lasting impacts of early years on the future development of the child, often well into adulthood.

Personal story: my first child went into an incubator for a month after birth. DH felt - and I have to say was made to feel - like an alien stepping into the female world of baby care. After coming home, I suffered immensely with stress, sleep deprivation and quite possibly had some form of depression. Meanwhile, DH didn't seem able to find his place. It has impacts today as I bonded very closely with DD1 and he didn't, but with DD2 (where things were calm and unstressed), we have equally strong connections.

Fathers need to be included in MH strategies because many families have fathers present in the home. A mother, especially first time mother, who feels supported in the home is less likely to suffer PND. Later family dynamics, starting with early years experience and MH, have serious impacts on the child. Where fathers are part of the family, it is important they can access support for MH issues.

christinarosetta19
I agree the figures need challenging and will start digging.
BloodeBloop
I don't think anyone is disputing that fathers can and do suffer from MH issues on the birth of their children. But given they are more likely to if the mother has MH issues it makes economic sense (if nothing else) to focus on her initially. Whether we like it or not resources are limited and I feel passionately that resources hitherto earmarked for women should not be shared unless this really is the best way to support women's well-being. And I do think that some of men's MH issues at this time (not all and I am definitely not referring to your experience!) are due to whiny man syndrome.

You what? Women are 'privileged' in the degree of support they receive around being pregnant/giving birth?

No, I'm saying men's mental health doesn't receive the attention it should and isn't taken seriously (see below comment).

And I do think that some of men's MH issues at this time (not all and I am definitely not referring to your experience!) are due to whiny man syndrome.

Just wow. I think this is one of the most reprehensible comments I've ever read on mumsnet. 84 men killing themselves a week (biggest cause of death of young men) and you think men are just whining?

So many posters are outraged at the circa 100 women who are murdered by their spouses every year, but when nearly as many men commit suicide every week you dismiss them as whiners who presumably need to 'man up'?

I'd say it's total opposite - 'boys don't cry' and all that. One look on AIBU will show you that women whine much more - even just the MIL threads alone are testament to this.

stroop

The OP didnt say that at all

OP think some of the men whose wives have given birth are whining

She even said some, not all...you even quoted that bit

I’m currently in a psychiatric mother and baby unit. One of the Most rewarding bits - it unashamedly centres women. All the nurses and support workers are women and all the patients are women. All suffering from a uniquely female experience. To try and include men in that experience takes incredibly valuable resources away from some of the most vulnerable women and their children.

Preciousthings

Stroopwaffel99

You are wilfully misrepresenting what is being said and I find it really troubling that you are lashing out about all manner of unrelated things.

This conversation is specifically about postnatal depression, which men do not get. It isn’t about the general issue of mental health, it’s specifically about something that only affects women. It’s a conversation about the idea that men should take some of the funding for PND because ‘they get it too’. They don’t. Any attempt to take limited funds for a serious women’s issue that also affects infants, is rightly being condemned on a feminist board that centres women. The comments re whiny men are obviously because a lot of men complain that they are suffering somehow because their partners now prioritise a baby- we see this all the time on MN. To respond as you have, with women whine too and bringing in men’s suicide stats, is just misogynistic BS. Men’s mental health is constantly talked about now and nobody here is telling anyone to ‘man up’ if they have serious mental health issues. Women suffer more anxiety and depression and make more attempts at suicide than men, and it is rarely discussed.

Here, we centre women. You can do a ‘what about the men’s issues’ somewhere else.

I’m currently in a psychiatric mother and baby unit. One of the Most rewarding bits - it unashamedly centres women. All the nurses and support workers are women and all the patients are women. All suffering from a uniquely female experience. To try and include men in that experience takes incredibly valuable resources away from some of the most vulnerable women and their children.

I hope your health improves soon. 💐

If what OP is having forced on her comes to pass, it’s only a matter of time before so woke wanker suggests that men with depression because their wife has carried, nurtured then pushed a baby out of her body, are permitted to be inpatients on that ward. It’s a very obvious slippery slope and another way of saving money. Although it would be interesting to know how many men with so called postnatal depression, end up in a unit? Not many, I dare say.

Mens' mental health absolutely needs more support, and it'd be great if there was more available.

But ... PND, as I understand it, is a very specific issue, related to hormonal fluctuations and, of course, appears only in females.

I don't doubt that men can get depressed for lots of reasons before, during and after their partner has a baby. I can't quite see how that makes it PND and NO FUCKING WAY should the funding for this come out of the budget for women and babies.

Even if we were to disregard the extra necessity of women's healthcare while she's dealing with the earth-shattering changes bearing a child and caring for a newborn entail, a new mother is responsible for a totally helpless baby. She HAS to be supported as a matter of priority - the dyad is of utmost importance.

Fuck this all to fuck, frankly.

@Stroopwaffel99 Just a heads up about your figures; the same number of women as men attempt suicide every week, but women are more likely to seek help especially if they have dependants, and men are more likely to succeed because they use more violent methods and are less likely to consider the impact on others.
Women are at a high risk of suicide after an episode of domestic violence.

''In countries around the world, women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and to attempt suicide. So why is the male suicide rate still several times higher than female?''

www.bbc.com/future/story/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women

It isn’t about the general issue of mental health, it’s specifically about something that only affects women. It’s a conversation about the idea that men should take some of the funding for PND because ‘they get it too’. They don’t. Any attempt to take limited funds for a serious women’s issue that also affects infants, is rightly being condemned on a feminist board that centres women.
This 👏👏👏

When my dad got testicular cancer, a male cancer, my mum suffered quite badly emotionally. Did anyone suggest diverting money from testicular cancer research and treatment to her? Did they bollocks (pun intended).

She could have sought separate mental health support but his medically indicated treatment shouldn't reduce because of his partner's emotional needs. Even though those needs are important.

Here, we centre women. You can do a ‘what about the men’s issues’ somewhere else.

I don't agree that funding for male depression following birth should be diverted from PND services. However, I think it's short sighted to isolate the treatment of one from the other.

Presumably in the case of maternal PND, particularly where the woman is able to be treated in the community, the expectation would be that dad necessarily provides much of the support, when professional help isn't there. So how is it in the mother's best interests for the father to be so depressed that he is unable to support her? Likewise, if the father's mental health is in decline post birth how helpful is that going to be for the mother if she is trying to recover from birth, care for a new born and now also has to become a carer to her male partner?

The family unit needs to be supported and somehow the NHS has to make sure that everyone involved has their needs met but not by taking resources away from one party to give to the other, surely?

To all of those dismissing male post birth depression as being merely situational and as a result of not having sex, dinner on the table or playing 5 a side football, as said on here, do you minimise depression other than PND in women in the same way?

Surely depression in general can have serious ramifications. The fact that we are discussing PND here doesn't make the effects of other types of depression any less serious does it? Otherwise do women suffering all types of depression, other than PND, warrant the same level of derision as being displayed by some posters on here?

When my dad got testicular cancer, a male cancer, my mum suffered quite badly emotionally.

Apply the same logic to your mum as being applied to men on here then - what business did your mum have in getting depressed about a health condition experienced only by men? Was she suffering from whiny woman syndrome?

I hope everyone would see her suffering for what it was - a reaction to a very serious situation with wide reaching implications for her partner and family. Most oncology departments have links with support services for family because the importance of relatives and the support that they give to the patient is recognised.

The vast vast amount of people on here have said that they appreciate that some men get depressed following the birth of their baby

Not one person has said they have no business getting depressed

Just that they are depressed...not suffering with post natal depression

But it's the dismissive nature of some of the posts - saying that some men are just whining because their dinner isn't ready or they can't play 5 a side football.

Depression, regardless of cause or who it affects, deserves to be treated seriously and appropriately, not minimised or belittled.

I'm assuming the OP is a HCP which makes their attitude even more alarming.

Depression, regardless of cause or who it affects, deserves to be treated seriously and appropriately, not minimised or belittled.

I'll belittle men's woes all I like, thanks, when their woes are being funded by already abjectly inadequate budgets for woman-specific conditions. You know: like PND. The thing men don't, and can't, get. Cos they don't get pregnant or give birth.

You can make as many pleas to female socialisation as you like. I still won't be giving a single, solitary, shiny shit.

I trust that is sufficiently clear.

Is it men asking for this though? Or is it that a need has been identified by health bosses and this is the rubbish way that they have decided to deal with that need?

Can you explain how untreated mental health problems in new fathers will help new mothers? Will the dad experiencing a downward spiral into depression, possibly leading to loss of job, income, home or breakdown of marriage help new mums?

No, resources shouldn't be diverted from women's services to fund this but nor are men suffering from depression, regardless of cause, whiny. In the same way as women suffering any depression that isn't PND, whiny

Is it men asking for this though?

Did you read the OP? There’s a link to a dad blog, a dad who is asking for this and says he suffered PND.

It is literally what provoked this conversation and responses

Aye.

WATM is so fucking tedious.