The 12th law of misogny

[Mamello]

Wise women of FWR please help me. Part of my work is to help women access support for their perinatal mental health (in pregnancy and up to a year post birth). I have been told, in a time of phenomenally tight resources, we must now start providing additional support for fathers because whereas only 10-15% of perinatal mothers suffer from post natal depression, 20% of fathers do (according to MIND). I'm not saying fathers don't suffer PND but studies have shown that it is often linked to the mothers mental heath and there is nothing about severity or that women don't just suffer from PND but also anxiety, psychosis etc. In addition the figures for fathers are based on self-report whereas those for mothers are based on midwife or health visitor assessment.
This is an example of one father's blog:

I was fortunate enough to never actually need the help when I had postnatal depression.……Besides, It’s not like I’d have the option to go to a mother and baby unit. Had it been my wife who had suffered then maybe she would’ve ended up in one of those units

isablog.co.uk/2018/05/11/dads-nhs-perinatal-mental-health/

And in another article:

In the UK, for example, the tradition of health visiting is heavily focused on mothers and children, and some health visitors are reluctant to address postnatal depression in men. As a result, fathers end up feeling overlooked following the birth of a child and their experiences rendered invisible.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/nhs-postnatal-depression-anxiety-mental-health-young-fathers-parent-support-a8668806.html

I want to keep fighting for better resources and support for women's mental health. Whilst there's good evidence that fathers do suffer post natal mental health problems I worry that this is just another reason to downgrade services for women and minimise their role in birthing and childbearing. I'd like to hear your take on this. Is this a feminist issue or AIBU?

I would echo what most other posters are saying so far - this should not come out of the budget for women's services.

The cynic in me is also asking whether this is a strategy for employing more men in an area of work that is done, generally, by women, and is a female-centred resource.

So I agree that men need help but not at women's expense or in women's spaces (again) or by being the centre of women's attention when she has other things to deal with!! (Sorry dads!)

Especially this bit

So many good posts already but so shocked about this I want to add my 2p. Errol put it brilliantly and I am sure Rufus is right - those figures need checking. Are these figures for men and women based on their being assessed and diagnosed in exactly the same way?

If more men than women have PND then this would be the only type of depression EVER at any age in which proportionally more men than women are affected. (Proportionately more men commit suicide but more women are diagnosed with depression)

The 2015-17 government promised it would be investing hugely in perinatal and postnatal mental health. Where has that promise gone?

Of course men do get PND and it's under recognised and there is lots of stigma. But maternal mental health services are so limited that it is wrong to think funding can be removed and reallocated to men.

I'll admit I'm no expert on psychiatry yada yada.
But it annoys me it being called PND in men.
They might get depressed, fair enough. But it's not the same thing.
Maybe I'm primed by Barra Kerr's post. But accurate language matters, and distinctions need to be drawn.

Things men do not suffer from; a list:
Postpartum haemorrhage
Postpartum arthralgia
Postpartum cardiomyopathy
Postpartum endometritis
Postpartum hair-loss
Postpartum infection
Postpartum oedema
Postpartum psychosis
Postpartum sepsis
Postpartum thyroiditis
POSTPARTUM DEPRESSION

Men get depression. It may coincide with a woman giving birth. That birth may or may not be the man's offspring.
But since they are not postpartum it is not postpartum depression.

Similarly, if they cut a finger and bleed at the moment their partner gives birth they are not experiencing postpartum haemorrhage.

Men's health services should take the strain of this need for the fellas.
Because frankly, services for women who have ACTUALLY given birth are stretched thinly enough without pretending that men did it too.

Yes, it's men's and fathers' services that need to step up here, rather than appropriation of women's much-needed services for women.

Mamello
I agree it is following a distinct pattern of systemic misogyny.

Postpartum depression is a life threatening, serious. temporary illness which affects peri-natal women, their children and their partners.

At a time in the USA when maternal mortality is steadily declining (on par with 3rd world counties for black mothers) I have very little patience for centering fucked up fathers.

The only way thru this is to ensure every birthing family is in the care of midwives who can provide family-centered care, without interruption: prenatal, intra, and postpartum continuity. Call me a dreamer....
I'm sending you affirmation that you are on the right track, and the strength to stand strong in your important work

correction: maternal mortality is INCREASING, not decreasing

To equate any situational perinatal mental illness in men with the complex, almost entirely biological and sometimes devastating illnesses women suffer is a disgrace. Yes, fathers need support if distressed and yes, it can make things better for mothers if they get that support, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of maternal mental (and physical) health care, which is shockingly poorly funded in the first place.

Could you request the equality impact assessment that should have been carried out to inform the decision to reprofile the perinatal mental health budget? And if they haven’t carried one out, suggest that they may wish to do so, particularly as pregnancy and maternity is a specific protected characteristic?

EIAs are only worth as much as the evidence used and ability to interpret of the person writing it, but it may give you a way in to have the discussion.

Family centred care would be great, I agree, if it were properly funded. We need transformational thinking, not squeezing already poorly funded services, dammit!

You can see a lot of evidence of men suffering from depression after their partners give birth on the relationships board. It generally manifests as complaining they haven't got dinner on the table, complaining about lack of sex, needing to have lie ins at the weekends and going to the pub a lot.

I wonder how many of the men who have self-certified as depressed have completely withdrawn from childcare responsibilities? A high proportion I'd suspect

Also it downgrades postnatal depression into a situational depression rather than a complex medical issue, if you suggest that what men are suffering is the same thing.

^totally agree with the above. I have complicated endocrine issues and have had since I had my baby 17 years ago. I know a thing or two about hormones and the powerful impact they can have. Women’s endocrine systems are completely different to men, pregnancy and birth obviously significantly impact our endocrine system. Postpartum depression is a unique biological condition that only affects women. It is enraging to me that anyone would consider taking crucial funding for this and allocate it to men. They do NOT get postpartum depression. They do not. Men’s mental health can be addressed by a GP, separately.

Seriously, can women not have anything just about us?? Not even a really fucking important thing like this.

I thought the whole point in maternity services monitoring post natal depression was to prevent or provide early warning of post natal psychosis which is far more serious. If they are stretching resources and distracting health care professionals with men’s situational depression then this is not going to happen.

By all means tell them to see their GP if they are struggling.

Can I have a personal moment of bitterness here.
The hospital staff sent my husband home to "keep his strength up" during what they thought was the early stages of my labour. When he returned I was in transition and had started to push. I went through all that alone. Although I did have a good story to listen to.

He then used the strength that he'd saved to go out and wet the babies head. Meanwhile I was stuck in a hellish hospital ward, with no idea what I was doing, and no chance of any rest. I hardly dare leave my daughter to go to the loo or get breakfast.

He was then too bloody hungover to help when we did come home.

He's actually been a good father but I am really not feeling the urge to centre men after childbirth.

The service needs to prioritise women!

This guy is annoying:

I'm a 27 year old married father of one - soon to be two! I started blogging after suffering with postnatal depression when Isabelle was born. These days I just talk about my life as a dad.

No Ross, you did not suffer from postnatal depression.

Melioration
I thought the whole point in maternity services monitoring post natal depression was to prevent or provide early warning of post natal psychosis which is far more serious.

I had a friend who spent the first 6 months of her babies life in the psychiatric mother and baby unit. She'll never get that time back and she will never be the same.
The thought that anyone could be so self absorbed as to actually take resources away from women and babies when they are at their most vulnerable makes me feel physically sick.

Being depressed because you’ve had a massive life change is not PND. Neither is not getting enough sleep, being expected to help out at home or returning from work to a messy house and no tea on the table. Neither is finding it hard because nobody is centring your needs, and neither is not being able to go out to play football 5 nights a week, spend all day on PlayStation or go out and get pissed every night. Neither is not getting all the sex you think you’re entitled to. Those are just a few of the reasons for mens’ depression after becoming a father that I’ve read on MN over the last few weeks.

Are women not allowed anything, not even the shit things? Oh well I’ve had something like that so give all your resources to me, I need them more than you. Jesus, men just can’t stand not being front and centre can they? It’s all about the men, all the fucking time.

I think this is a tricky subject.

Several posters have voiced their opinions that men do indeed need more support but that this shouldn't come at a cost to women. However, it seems also to be a commonly voiced opinion on this board that in the areas where men are privileged (e.g. pay/stem subject places) there has to necessarily be some sacrifice on the part of men which will result in individual cases of men 'losing out' - individual sacrifice for the greater good.

I'm not actually convinced that men suffer PND in the same way as women and hence a different service provision may actually be the most suitable option, but surely there should in theory be parity between the sexes in terms of sacrifice where one sex is privileged in the degree of support they receive.

Or should men also not have to sacrifice their position of privilege in order for women to achieve equality (which may result in the latter taking significantly longer to achieve)?

Is there going to be anything left for women, that men are not going to have handed to them, FFS?

I think you've confused 'privilege' with 'lifesaving postpartum healthcare' Stroopwaffel99.

And no, I don't think women who've given birth should sacrifice any postnatal care resources to men who have not given birth as some sort of payback for expecting equal pay.

it's being refocused to centre men. Women are very unfashionable.

Ditto lesbians. No mention of female partners, right? They don't get anything.

If the 10-15% and 20% statistics are being used to compare populations, they should be measuring the same thing. They are really obviously not.

Yes (thank you again, Barracker).
The resources for men's services should not be deducted from the budget for women.

Those stats need to be challenged as their not comparing like with like - being formally diagnosed isn't the same as answering 'yes' to a questionnaire.

Mind's use of data is pretty spurious tbh.

And the issue of 'fathers' being specified and not 'partners' is discriminatory is it not?

I think you've confused 'privilege' with 'lifesaving postpartum healthcare' Stroopwaffel99.

And no, I don't think women who've given birth should sacrifice any postnatal care resources to men who have not given birth as some sort of payback for expecting equal pay.

I'm inclined to agree with you in this instance and my question was more a hypothetical one. I'm not suggesting it is any 'payback' for equal pay - it was just an example.

Although that said, I do believe men's mental health really needs addressing in light of men being significantly more likely to actually kill themselves and it being the primary cause of death if young men in this country (admittedly a discussion for a different thread. 84 men a week is a shocking figure!