The 12th law of misogny

[Mamello]

Wise women of FWR please help me. Part of my work is to help women access support for their perinatal mental health (in pregnancy and up to a year post birth). I have been told, in a time of phenomenally tight resources, we must now start providing additional support for fathers because whereas only 10-15% of perinatal mothers suffer from post natal depression, 20% of fathers do (according to MIND). I'm not saying fathers don't suffer PND but studies have shown that it is often linked to the mothers mental heath and there is nothing about severity or that women don't just suffer from PND but also anxiety, psychosis etc. In addition the figures for fathers are based on self-report whereas those for mothers are based on midwife or health visitor assessment.
This is an example of one father's blog:

I was fortunate enough to never actually need the help when I had postnatal depression.……Besides, It’s not like I’d have the option to go to a mother and baby unit. Had it been my wife who had suffered then maybe she would’ve ended up in one of those units

isablog.co.uk/2018/05/11/dads-nhs-perinatal-mental-health/

And in another article:

In the UK, for example, the tradition of health visiting is heavily focused on mothers and children, and some health visitors are reluctant to address postnatal depression in men. As a result, fathers end up feeling overlooked following the birth of a child and their experiences rendered invisible.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/nhs-postnatal-depression-anxiety-mental-health-young-fathers-parent-support-a8668806.html

I want to keep fighting for better resources and support for women's mental health. Whilst there's good evidence that fathers do suffer post natal mental health problems I worry that this is just another reason to downgrade services for women and minimise their role in birthing and childbearing. I'd like to hear your take on this. Is this a feminist issue or AIBU?

One thing which didn't previously occur to me is that there is also a significantly higher probability that the father is trying to balance a challenging career alongside sleepless night etc, and with the added subtext of 'providing for a family.'

I'd defo have struggled with this when in my previous high stress sales career (which ended up affecting my mental wellbeing even without children in the equation).

Just a heads up about your figures; the same number of women as men attempt suicide every week, but women are more likely to seek help especially if they have dependants, and men are more likely to succeed because they use more violent methods and are less likely to consider the impact on others

And there you have the 12th law of misandry. Anything men suffer from, women suffer from worse. Three times as many men commit suicide as women, but it's still, somehow, a bigger problem for women

Three times as many men commit suicide as women, but it's still, somehow, a bigger problem for women

The post even states that its equal

It doesnt say its a bigger problem for women...it says that women attempt suicide at the same rate as men

...and still we're talking about men. Quite apart from PND, I bet a good proportion of the women posting to or reading this thread have had to deal with the fact that men feel 'unappreciated' and that they're not getting enough attention when the wives have just given birth and are struggling to come to terms with what's happened to their bodies, are exhausted from night feeds, realising their life has changed forever, and there's a big man-baby sulking about not being the centre of the universe at the moment. 😡

I'm not aware of anybody I know ever 'sulking' about their newborn child receiving more attention than them. What kind of men are you associating with? I really think this is another of those ludicrous 'how men think' assertions which seem only to occur on FWR if I'm honest.

Oh bully for you then.

After all, we men know exactly how women think just like you do men.

This is the feminism board. Can we not have long discussions about mens issues ffs

I'm not aware of anybody I know ever....

So what? Do you know everybody in the world? So women are liars again are we? Cos WE DO know men like this.

My husband is fucking awesome

I read threads like this and think i really must tell him that

I come to my senses obviously

My brother was awesome with babies as well. But some aren't

Men’s Rights Activism is a dirty word on a feminism board.

Stroopwaffel99

I'm not aware of anybody I know ever 'sulking' about their newborn child receiving more attention than them. What kind of men are you associating with? I really think this is another of those ludicrous 'how men think' assertions which seem only to occur on FWR if I'm honest.

Well I don't know where you reside but that appears to be pretty normal in the US.

My friends experience similar things my mom did in the 70s - their DHs are pretty decent guys but this idea that dads "help" with mom's "woman duties" like child rearing is pervasive. These guys love their kids so much and they love their wives and all of them are liberal. But they all buy into this idea that child rearing is woman's work (well except for the fun stuff) - they would never say it but their actions speak louder than words. These aren't SAHMs I'm talking about - they are professionals that went back to work within their company guidelines post-birth (less than 4wks for all of them). Their husbands stop at the bar for a drink with buddies while the moms rush home to care for the children.

Tell me again how this doesn't happen IRL.

Tell me how dads smoking cigars and having cocktails with friends post-birth is just as hard as recovering from pushing a watermelon through a grape-sized canal.

I'm sure some men experience post-birth depression, however, I suspect it has more to do with ego and self-centering than birth trauma. It doesn't mean it isn't important but it isn't postpartum.

Stroopwaffel99, just to clear up the confusion in your post responding to mine, yes, you correctly identified that my post was dripping with sarcasm. But yes, it was, at the same time, an accurate description of the beady eyes of posters such as yourself, who scan threads of women talking about and focusing on ways to make women's lives better and not thinking about the needs of men at all and feel they need to push the men back into the uppity women's thoughts again.

If you can't see why the women here will tell you to FFTFO and then blank your sorry arse self because they have no interest in your opinions or on focusing on men's needs, then I don't think theres much to be done.

BTW, FFTFO and don't expect a response from me to anything further you might want to burp in reply to this. Ta.

Men just do not, ever experience the physicality and reality of being a woman and being pregnant for months and then giving birth.

A service specifically dedicated to women's perinatal mental health, is, by definition, not a service for men. Because men don't have that experience and reality of physical pregnancy and childbirth happening to them.

Morning,

Just letting you know that we've just banned Stroopwaffel99 based on his utterly goady posts on a different (non-FWR) thread. Turns out he was a previously banned troll.

We'll happily delete all of his posts on this thread too but it means the thread won't make much sense. Do let us know if you'd rather we did that, though.

Hopefully we can get the thread back on track now.

I'm sure some men experience post-birth depression, however, I suspect it has more to do with ego and self-centering than birth trauma. It doesn't mean it isn't important but it isn't postpartum.

But people, both men and women, suffer depression, many as a result of something specific happening eg marriage breaking down, a bereavement, loss of a job etc. Basically, as a result of a major life event. Why is it so difficult to accept that some men might develop reactive depression following the birth of a child that isn't because they are sulking, are jealous or are throwing a strop?

Why would it be relevant in terms of allocating funding specifically focused on women's postpartum depression what caused any depression in their male partners?

Because it won't be directly related to the physical effects of growing, giving birth to and feeding a new human being.

Yes, obviously, and it fucking pains me to say it because it's a given and said everywhere else already, men's MH issues should be taken seriously. But they do not need to be given a slice of the provision for women. They just don't.

Its not difficult, as you would understand if you read the sentence you quoted. It doesn't mean it isn't important but it isn't postpartum.

Men don't get post partum depression=/=men dont get depression.

What are mens rights activists doing about mens mental health? Something that changes the way men perceive asking for help, or setting up dedicated clinics for men.
Something doesn't involve taking resources away from mothers and babies that are at risk.
Shouting at women online doesn't count.

JoMumsnet

Thank you. I’m happy for most of the trolls comments to stay, as you’re right it won’t make much sense otherwise.

Why is it so difficult to accept that some men might develop reactive depression

It isn’t. Nobody here has said that never happens. This thread is about post natal depression and why funding for it, and the focus of supporting health professionals, should be on the mothers with PND, not just for their benefit but because of the essential role they play in the life of a newborn. This is about prioritising women with PND. Why is it so difficult for you to centre women? I notice your derailing on threads all the time, and it follows a similar pattern.

I’m happy for most of the trolls comments to stay, as you’re right it won’t make much sense otherwise.

Totally. Frankly, I only really like to see trolls posts removed when they are upsettingly abusive - most of the time leaving their disgraceful behaviour up as evidence of the incessant bullshit we have to put up with is much preferred.

You'd think they didn't have a life apart from trawling through women's conversations in case we're being mean and not centering men. Wonder if they have a little wank every time they post a particularly zinging put-down. 🤣