The 12th law of misogny

[Mamello]

Wise women of FWR please help me. Part of my work is to help women access support for their perinatal mental health (in pregnancy and up to a year post birth). I have been told, in a time of phenomenally tight resources, we must now start providing additional support for fathers because whereas only 10-15% of perinatal mothers suffer from post natal depression, 20% of fathers do (according to MIND). I'm not saying fathers don't suffer PND but studies have shown that it is often linked to the mothers mental heath and there is nothing about severity or that women don't just suffer from PND but also anxiety, psychosis etc. In addition the figures for fathers are based on self-report whereas those for mothers are based on midwife or health visitor assessment.
This is an example of one father's blog:

I was fortunate enough to never actually need the help when I had postnatal depression.……Besides, It’s not like I’d have the option to go to a mother and baby unit. Had it been my wife who had suffered then maybe she would’ve ended up in one of those units

isablog.co.uk/2018/05/11/dads-nhs-perinatal-mental-health/

And in another article:

In the UK, for example, the tradition of health visiting is heavily focused on mothers and children, and some health visitors are reluctant to address postnatal depression in men. As a result, fathers end up feeling overlooked following the birth of a child and their experiences rendered invisible.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/nhs-postnatal-depression-anxiety-mental-health-young-fathers-parent-support-a8668806.html

I want to keep fighting for better resources and support for women's mental health. Whilst there's good evidence that fathers do suffer post natal mental health problems I worry that this is just another reason to downgrade services for women and minimise their role in birthing and childbearing. I'd like to hear your take on this. Is this a feminist issue or AIBU?

So many posters are outraged at the circa 100 women who are murdered by their spouses every year, but when nearly as many men commit suicide every week

We centre women here. PND is a massive issue for women.

Whataboutery won't be appreciated as has been extensively explained. Because it looks exactly like you're trying to refocus women back to respecting and prioritising men, and when you do that on this board it takes on a very clear anti woman meaning.

Please do go start a movement to support male depression. Please do go champion male mental health. Go launch awareness raising threads. The FWR board isn't the place to do it.

Apologies, I think I did misread the 'whining men' bit. However, there does often seem to be an unhealthy attitude towards men on here which likely didn't help.

In the recent past I've read opinions that suggest that due process should be done away with in rape cases. Also that men should pay more tax - even those on low salaries who would necessarily be 'collateral damage', with no mention of the fact that young women actually earn more and that many women want to remain SAHM after the kids are at school (see current thread in AIBU) and no consideration that this may contribute to women's pay dropping after child bearing age. Also read another recently where a poster's wife was choosing not to work or do any housework whilst being really messy and letting the husband do it all - the replies were nowhere close to as scathing as they would be had it been a male 'cocklodger'.

So it's not hard to see why I might have taken the view that posters were being unsympathetic to men. Ultimately, part of what frustrates me is that women often end up being victims to the man's mental health issues alongside himself. Whenever we hear of a 'monster' who has committed a murder/suicide on his family, I speculate that he didn't just wake up one day and decide to do this and I wonder how long this was building up and what type of intervention or support might have prevented it.

No, resources shouldn't be diverted from women's services to fund this but nor are men suffering from depression, regardless of cause, whiny. In the same way as women suffering any depression that isn't PND, whiny

And no one said this either

Why do you feel you need to purposely misinterpret posters?

You're determined we must talk about and worry about men. And meeting men's needs.

OP, on top of rule 12, we're well into demonstrations of rule 1 of misogyny: women are responsible for what men do. And rule 3, women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

So it's not hard to see why I might have taken the view that posters were being unsympathetic to men

So you are assuming that people are saying what you THINK they are saying

Cos a few random posters said something mean

Gotcha

I didn't mean for that post to sound as aggressive as it reads.

I just think that derisive WATM posts aren't really very helpful in a discussion where the situation and outcomes for both parties are indeed influenced by the wellbeing of both individual party.

If one is going to complain on a forum for parents (not solely women) about the plight of one gender then they must necessarily be prepared for the responses to consider and contrast the wider picture. Just like how a man moaning about poor pay could expect to be met with cries of "but see how much worse off women are" (WATW).

I want the best for both sexes but often can't help feel that some posters on here want to eliminate men from the discussion in order retain a monopoly on their victim status.

And you honestly did well with the apology

I was having very warm thoughts...which sounds weird now ive typed it

And then you ruin it by blaming posters on completely different threads

I'm wondering if it's deep cover performance art. Someone sees the 12 rules of misogyny posted and feels a real time demonstration is the only way to truly feel the benefit of the wisdom of thebewilderness.

Did you read the OP? There’s a link to a dad blog, a dad who is asking for this and says he suffered PND.

Yes thanks I did read the OP, did you? Only I would be very surprised that one blog post caused a health authority to make such huge funding decisions.

Obviously I am missing something (otherwise your sarcastic remark is completely out of order) but could you show me where in the OP that it says that blog post was the cause of the funding decision in the OPs department?

I didn't mean for that post to sound as aggressive as it reads

Cross post

I dont know if mine comes across as aggressive but if it did then i meant it (at the time)

So you are assuming that people are saying what you THINK they are saying

Taking the examples I've given above, how else could they be interpreted? I'm doubtful the poster who wanted men to pay more tax was suggesting it should be reinvested in services to help men.

As for the appeal for understanding for family-killers..... 🙄 There is almost invariably a history of domestic violence, and for some reason the man's control is slipping, or something is going to come out which will shame him.

This thread is about a FEMALE issue, PND. We discuss FEMALE concerns on this board.

I meant that you are assuming that posters on this thread are being mean because of what posters on another thread said

Yes, I can see it's an issue, when wandering into the Feminism and Women's Rights section of Mumsnet, that you might look around at the female centred discussion and think "They really don't think enough about how tough the blokes have it, here. Not enough places in RL and online are considering men and their needs. I think we should refocus them."

To be clear, I'm not trying to blame anybody on this thread (so maybe I should just shut up and stop derailing 😳), but it frustrates me that the only place where I can discuss these issues (let's face it, bodybuilding.com and pistonheads won't cut it lol) and where posters seem to understand my point is also one of the places where there seems to be the most resistance to discussing men's issues. There really is no male equivalent to feminism and men's rights activism is a dirty word nowadays conjuring images of misogynistic neckbeards (wish we could reclaim the phrase. Most people are more indifferent than resistant, but many on here understand it but are resistant.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

I'm taking offence because I haven't seen 1 post on here saying that men's mental health should be prioritized over women's, or minimising the effects of PND over any other form of depression. Any of us that are recognising that there is a need for partners to receive treatment for depression occuring after birth have all said that it is important and beneficial for both partners well being and for the benefit of the family unit, but not at a detriment to services provided for mothers.

How is that in any way centering men over women? If anyone is choosing to misrepresent I think it's you tbh.

This thread is about a FEMALE issue, PND. We discuss FEMALE concerns on this board.

So does male depression not affect anyone other than the man, particularly in the case of a new father who is needed to be well in order to support the new mother and their child? A mentally well father offers no benefit to a new mum, no?

Yes, I can see it's an issue, when wandering into the Feminism and Women's Rights section of Mumsnet, that you might look around at the female centred discussion and think "They really don't think enough about how tough the blokes have it, here. Not enough places in RL and online are considering men and their needs. I think we should refocus them."

I'm not sure if this was intended as irony/sarcasm but there is some truth in it - although I'm not trying to refocus/mansplain (hate that phrase!) anything, just giving a counter point.

If anyone is choosing to misrepresent I think it's you tbh

I beg your fucking pardon!

And ftr I don't actually think that women's budgets should actually be cut to fund male issues. I was contrasting the common view that there will necessarily be some 'collateral damage' for men in achieving equality - most likely of young men who did not create the patriarchy and have grown up with different outlooks from the men of decades past (who are unlikely to as affected having already attained significant wealth and power).

I often feel that men as a class are held accountable for the top 1% who (despite being overwhelmingly male) are not representative of the whole.

Which group is more privileged out of the following: a) 10 successful businesswoman b) nine homeless men and Bill Gates? Class analysis would say the latter group is more privileged as it commands a wealth of billions, despite 90% of it eating from bins.

You're determined we must talk about and worry about men. And meeting men's needs.

That's fine. Decomposing is all over the boards whataboutthemening. Rape, health, child support, there is literally nowhere Decomposing isn't fighting for men. I really hope they appreciate it they don't

Apply the same logic to your mum as being applied to men on here then - what business did your mum have in getting depressed about a health condition experienced only by men? Was she suffering from whiny woman syndrome?

Are you fucking kidding me? You’re actually comparing the birth of a child to the possible loss of a partner to cancer. You should be ashamed of yourself.

To the OP,

Mh professional here. I would make no effort to target Father’s with mh issues in perinatal period but I would identify a struggling family and to make this go away, include mh support to the other partner so the unit and the woman is more likely to recover promptly.

Absolutely appalling that ccg is expecting this. You should tip off a journalist to make a well place d foi request.

Men receive disproportionate support in other mh services. Check out men in sheds, men in sport etc. Unapologetically supporting men only. Don't see the ccg wanting token female provision there...

Perinatal psych is so bloody specialist and very much related to the physicality of the female and difficulty prescribing. Male adjustment is not the same.

To repeat I am not saying men's MH does not suffer on the birth of a child, but this cannot mean women's needs at this time (including women who have gone through stillbirth or who have lost babies) are not given the priority they deserve. I do not apologise for saying that some men (some!) have unrealistic expectations of what maternity services can provide for them and then are upset their needs are not being met. Most of us here are fighting for women's services and rights. I hope some men step up and do the same if they feel their needs are not being met - but not at the expense of women.

preciousthings I really hope you feel better soon and am glad you are receiving help.

Are you fucking kidding me? You’re actually comparing the birth of a child to the possible loss of a partner to cancer. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nope. I am comparing the treatment of depression with the support of a spouse whose partner is undergoing treatment for cancer.

Presumably, given your aggressive post you would equally advocate for a male partner to get support if his wife is receiving treatment for a female cancer?

MrsTerryPratchett. Do point out where I am whataboutmenning. Because what I have unequivocally said is that whilst I can see the importance of appropriate treatment for each person involved, both individually and as a family unit, it should be funded separately and additionally and not at the detriment of women's services.