Can we stop being obedient soon, or will this coercion continue for evermore?

[theOtherPamAyres]

I know that Mumsnet moderators are hot on keeping respectful debate and for that reason does not allow misgendering, certain terms, and the like. It's their site and they make the rules and I respect that. This topic isn't about Mumsnet, it's about the growing confidence of feminists to refuse to use the terms and language of gender.

Karen Ingala Smith, speaking to the Womens Select Committee, showed how it could be done. As a result of the clarity of her language, she was able to cut through the nonsense and make her points forcefully. In contrast, Janet from Womens Aid, with her convoluted language about gender, sounded confused and muddle-headed.

When we are forced to use words like 'transwoman' and 'she' - for fear of prosecution, civil actions, job losses, imprisonment for contempt of court, exclusion, abuse and physical assaults - we have helped to normalise transgenderism. In effect, we are saying that a man can be a woman.

I believe that we can no longer support Trans Rights by default, by caving in and going with the flow. At some stage we have to assert the right to use our own terms - because we can't wait for legal precedents and government reviews. The more refusniks and recusants there are, the more confidence will grow.

What tips and tricks of language did you start using when you could no longer kowtow to the demand for obedience?
How did you write or speak about people/men/women who identify as trans? (Did you see what I did there?)

@Barracker welcome back.

@Michaelmumsnet your non-existent ovaries of steel are to be commended

Saying it like this, out loud, proves Barracker’s point. When we hear or read this, we feel on our guard. We think “ why does this man want me to ignore the fact that he is male ? What does this man want to do, that would be enabled by me ignoring the fact of his sex ? What does this man have to gain by blurring my natural wariness of men ? "

This was the tipping point when I decided never to tell pronoun lies again. Thank you Barracker and all. Please keep exposing and clarifying what's going on. Including with analogies.

Hi Barracker,
Really glad to see your suspension has been lifted, and great piece on Medium too. I'm working up to sharing it - in between your piece and Councillor Field's spot-on speech in Leeds, I'm feeling more encouraged than I have been for a while.

Reposting important post:

ChickenonaMug Tue 28-May-19 13:46:56
I would also like to thank Barracker for her brilliant article which she ends with "And more than anything, I owe this to girls. I don’t want to play even the tiniest part in grooming them to disregard their natural protective instincts. Those instincts are there for a reason. To keep them safe. They need those instincts intact, and sharp.
And that’s why I won’t use preferred pronouns."

I will also take no part in the grooming of girls and nor will I take part in lying to girls either.

My concern is primarily for the impact on sexually abused girls, as I was a girl who was groomed, abused and raped.

One of the reasons that I will no longer use preferred pronouns is because I will not contribute to something that will add to the confusion of sexually abused children and risks them feeling unable to speak out about their abuse.

A child who has been groomed and sexually abused, perhaps from a very young age, will usually, as she matures, begin to understand that what is happening to her is wrong. She will also start to wonder how she can stop or escape the abuse. She will weigh up what might happen if she does speak up and she will recognise that she may be the only person who recognises and understands the truth about what/who her abuser is.

There are many reasons why a sexually abused girl may not speak up and they will include the fear that the result of speaking up will be worse even than the abuse, the fear of being disbelieved and the fear that the adults around her will not be able to handle the truth; that she needs to protect adults from the truth.

A sexually abused girl may also develop an acute awareness about the risks that males present to her and also develop a trauma-response to males in certain circumstances, especially when she feels vulnerable. She may have heightened awareness that what is important to safeguard herself from sexual assault. She knows that all males may pose a risk and that there is no way of knowing which one may attempt based on their demeanour, appearance, position in society or anything else.

How therefore, do we as expect her to speak up when she is being told, or it is being implied with the use of pronouns, by teachers that males can be females and that a person is whoever they identify themselves to be?

How can we expect her to feel that the adult world can handle the truth, when it doesn't even seem to understand that the males that she reacts to are definitely male, even if they identify themselves as female?

How do can we expect her to trust the adults around her if she feels compelled to use pronouns that don't reflect her own recognition of the facts?

How can we expect her to trust adults who ignore her need for same-sex spaces and who contribute to her exclusion, because of their own desires to to be progressive or their misguided attempts to be inclusive.

I will not contribute to the grooming of girls to ignore their emerging and fragile boundaries and instincts and I will not contribute to sexually abused girls being abused for longer because the adult world around them cannot be trusted by her, to recognise and understand the truth."

chicken I remember you're really impostant previous posts. Thank you

@MichaelMumsnet
Please take this seriously.
Its Safeguarding & Child Protection

apologies, chicken I remember your really important previous posts. Thank you

I was recently given a 7-day suspension here for talking about "pronouns" in relation to DSDs, which is nothing to do with anything related to trans / gender identity ideology. I honestly thought that moderators knew that DSDs and transgenderism are entirely unrelated.

Still had to wait out the 7 days though.

And welcome back Barracker

Still had to wait out the 7 days though

In the light of the reversal of the decision about Barracker’s suspension , it would be good to know if MNHQ are thinking about how they can avoid meting out similarly unfair treatment to other posters

Thank you R0wantrees

Hurray! Barracker your Medium article was epic. I have shared it with everyone I can think of !

Good decision, MNHQ, thanks for taking the feedback on board. Welcome back, Barracker!

Dr Em article: 'Why Women’s Rights Are Not “really unpleasant and harmful”: A Response to Jon Ronson'

(extract)
"Furthermore, do you see no harm in the fact that the truth and a fundamental basis of reality is being deemed harmful and subject to social control and proposed state legislation? I am deeply worried by this turn, particularly in the context of the boom in the sex industry and a deepening global economic depression. Have you not noticed the correlation between those who attack feminists and claim ‘transwomen are women’ and those who support the sale of poor women for rape (‘woman’ can be defined when they are being bought & sold)?

I think it is the deepest cruelty to teach children that they are born wrong, creating a crumple of self-esteem and a disconnect with their bodies. Alongside this, safeguarding is being shredded. The 1st rule is that we do not keep secrets — this is out the window with trans identification. Adult males can now share sleeping accommodation, without parent’s knowing, with young females — see the Girl Guides policy. We are having an issue with adult males discussing breasts and genitals with young girls in online forums and over the phone, because it is cast as guidance from those older in the trans community or those providing binders.The age of informed consent is being whittled away at, if a child can consent to sterilisation and hormones at 12, then what about sex? I find it astonishing that children are making life changing decisions when, on the other hand, they aren’t allowed to pick their own breakfast.

This is all based on the misogynistic concept that sex stereotypes define ‘woman’ and clothes are magical, so magical in fact that they override biology." (continues)
medium.com/@doctorEm/why-womens-rights-are-not-really-unpleasant-and-harmful-a-response-to-jon-ronson-3a8348ae088e

he wants you to pretend he is neither male nor female
He wants you to ignore the fact he is male

cf Jess Bradley (suspended NUS Officer, co-founder of TELI & Action For Trans Health)

"The first time I changed the world was when I told my mates to call me she rather than he. I literally constructed a new world where its possible to understand myself as a genderqueer woman, despite being asigned male at birth simply by changing the language to describe myself. This is why language and pronouns are so important. Its about creating a world in which trans people are allowed to exist"

Jess Bradley 'To My Trans Sisters'
edited by Charlie Craggs (publ Oct 2017)

NUS, The Proud TRust (Manchester) & Action For Trans Health have faied to respond to allegations of innapropriate sexualised behaviour made against Jess Bradley. Some were made nearly a year ago.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320513-Jess-Bradley-first-transgender-student-officer-suspended-after-flashing-photos

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3321764-Jess-Bradley-suspended-Part-II

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325623-Jess-Bradley-a-government-advisor-on-womens-rights-suspended-by-NUS-over-indecent-blog-Part-iii

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520762-Jess-Bradley-government-advisor-and-suspended-NUS-Trans-Officer-Part-iv

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374926-What-influence-does-TELI-have-on-government-public-services-and-charities-policies-Co-founders-include-Jess-Bradley-Tara-Hewitt-and-Michelle-Hudson

I literally constructed a new world where its possible to understand myself as a genderqueer woman, despite being asigned male at birth simply by changing the language to describe myself.

You always find the apposite quotes, R0!

The old world still disapproves of alleged flashers, I'm happy to say.

Lang I've been trying to find it all afternoon!

Finally found it here whilst listening to the news that Alistair Campbell has been suspended by Labour having said he voted LibDem in the EU elections!

Funny world

Interesting thread from last year:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3329447-People-Who-Oppose-Trans-Rights-Have-No-Place-In-Labour-Says-The-First-LGBT-Mayoral-Adviser

This is why language and pronouns are so important.

Good to know that on this important fact, so many of us are in agreement with Jess Bradley!

Barracker wrote Sun 26-May-19 00:10:01
"I am desperate for MNHQ to decide to allow posters to use correct pronouns and known names or aliases for all people.

The speed with which society will reverse the madness when we're brave enough to hear 'he' 'man' 'John' in relation to discussions of who exactly is demanding access to little girls and women. It will knock socks off.

The reason pronouns matter isn't because it spares hurty feelings. There's no worth in that compelled 'she' when you know the speaker doesn't mean it. No, the reason pronouns are such a massive deal is because female pronouns act like rohypnol. They lower inhibitions, make you feel safer, lessen defences.

"She's sad she can't join the girls in the changing rooms"
Emotional response = aw, why are the girls being mean?
"He's sad he can't join the girls in the changing rooms"
Emotional response =bolt the door NOW girls, and call for help.

"The girls don't want to undress in front of Jane"
"The girls don't want to undress in front of David"

Words change perceptions.
Pronouns can be rohypnol.
I owe it to women and girls to use language that primes their alertness, keeps them aware."

Lang I've been trying to find it all afternoon!

Glad you did cos it's bang to rights!

Maybe I should start my thread about pronouns again that got deleted a while back.

Good decision.
Barracker you wrote something similar in another thread on this same topic last year that helped me understand it all in a FLASH. This is powerful stuff. Good work everyone!

Interesting that so many of us avoid using any pronoun, or use the gender-neutral 'they' when referring to transwomen, yet use the masculine pronoun when referring to transmenn*. I wonder whether Barracker's Rohypnol analogy is at work here, unconsciously and instinctively.

Thank you for reinstating my post.

What about the others who were deleted?

Welcome back, Barracker

Good.

Jon Ronson’s response to Glinner is depressing. I always liked Jon. Why are there men who don’t get this? Jon Ronson, like some members of my family, is jewish. The way that feminists are being demonised for wanting to preserve the single sex spaces we have in law, the way that the police are now visiting people for wrongthink, the way that we as women can’t name, IN A COURT OF LAW, a very obvious male , who has attacked us, or sexually assaulted us, or exposed HIS PENIS to us, as a male, the way politicians are afraid to speak politicians that women, as half the electorate, voted in... ? For jewish people who I know, these things are alarming in and of themselves , because they have a resonance of fascism. When police visited Harry the Owl for stating an opinion that most of the electorate would agree with, and said er no...it isn’t illegal, but we don’t think it is very nice...
Dangerous games they are playing, these men who want to remove children’s boundaries, and get access to women’s spaces. The people who support this are shoring up a system where “saying something I don’t like” gets you a visit from the police. Next time it might not be in support of TRAs.

Sorry I should have proof read that, I am typing and eating supper at the same time. It could be clearer, and there is a comma or two missing.
Hopefully the meaning still comes over.