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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Can we stop being obedient soon, or will this coercion continue for evermore?

652 replies

theOtherPamAyres · 25/05/2019 23:14

I know that Mumsnet moderators are hot on keeping respectful debate and for that reason does not allow misgendering, certain terms, and the like. It's their site and they make the rules and I respect that. This topic isn't about Mumsnet, it's about the growing confidence of feminists to refuse to use the terms and language of gender.

Karen Ingala Smith, speaking to the Womens Select Committee, showed how it could be done. As a result of the clarity of her language, she was able to cut through the nonsense and make her points forcefully. In contrast, Janet from Womens Aid, with her convoluted language about gender, sounded confused and muddle-headed.

When we are forced to use words like 'transwoman' and 'she' - for fear of prosecution, civil actions, job losses, imprisonment for contempt of court, exclusion, abuse and physical assaults - we have helped to normalise transgenderism. In effect, we are saying that a man can be a woman.

I believe that we can no longer support Trans Rights by default, by caving in and going with the flow. At some stage we have to assert the right to use our own terms - because we can't wait for legal precedents and government reviews. The more refusniks and recusants there are, the more confidence will grow.

What tips and tricks of language did you start using when you could no longer kowtow to the demand for obedience?
How did you write or speak about people/men/women who identify as trans? (Did you see what I did there?)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
R0wantrees · 28/05/2019 14:01

I don't know. I suspect those who reported knew exactly what they were doing.

Quite possibly.

Coercive Control:
Trolling and Online Abuse - Is there a difference?
(extract)
The definition of trolling is changing.

Trolling was seen as luring others online into pointless, time-consuming arguments and to ‘get a rise’ for a troll’s amusement or to alleviate boredom.

It has now become intentionally malicious behavior to specifically cause distress (continues)

What separates them from other trolls is their sense of entitlement.

They believe they are justified in their behaviour.
And what may well have started off as kudos trolling has expanded into something much more virulent, obsessive and cruel.

This cyberbullying has included #stalking #harassment and #mobbing and has been conducted in a specific way to exact distress whilst remaining undetected. (continues)

And to better understand the motivations behind those who commit online abuse, we need to better understand the many tactics employed by abusive personality types- especially those who want to be seen as NOT abusing.
The perpetrators who reside below the radar.
As someone who has been raising awareness and better the understanding of #coercivecontrol, I have been struck by the many similarities shared by certain online abusers and coercive and controlling ex partners. This is especially true of those who partake of online #mobbing.
Put simply, #mobbing is bullying of an individual by a group. This can be family, peer group, school, workplace, neighborhood, community, or online.

It is almost always malicious and relies on rumor, innuendo, intimidation, humiliation, discrediting, and isolation.
Mobbing campaigns rely heavily on the reluctance of bystanders to intervene which only adds to the distress caused to the targeted individual.

One of the main reasons bystanders do nothing is because they are simply not aware of how mobbing campaigns operate.
The ringleaders behind the mobbing campaigns are very secretive.

They would never admit what they are doing. They play the “I've done nothing, it’s someone else “ card.
Their aims are:
*Character assassination

  • To ensure others distance themselves from the targeted individual.
  • Recruit others to abuse on their behalf ( #abusebyproxy) using information with a special significance aimed at the targeted individual, knowing that the bespoke targeting will cause immense distress.
  • Inciting others to mock, goad, provoke the target into responding. Ringleaders will build up their network of proxies to perpetuate the falsehood that the targeted individual is the problem. It allows them to retire* some of the original proxies who are then replaced with new proxies to keep the mobbing sustained & the abuse hidden. The reason is to more effectively turn the tables and direct the abuse away from the mobbing campaign and onto the target whilst giving the impression the target is belligerent and antagonises others. Even better if the mobbing campaign has successfully provoked a reaction. They will use that reaction to make their point that the target is THE problem, the target is abusive, harassing, stalking etc etc. The ringleader relies on the knowledge that the target is hyper vigilant and will be aware of a smear campaign specifically targeted towards them

BUT
Because of the bespoke nature of the abuse, not everyone will be privy to the triggers and so will be oblivious to what is going on.

The natural reaction for a victim of #mobbing is to highlight what is going on &the common response of those around the victim is disbelief.
So, what often happens is that victim becomes increasingly desperate to point out what is happening but, because the ringleader has been able to retreat, only the proxies are visible. So the abuse is effectively invisible in plain sight." (continues)
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1110452108183195649.html

CodenameVillanelle · 28/05/2019 14:02

In my own experience, MNHQ are harder on posters who get posts deleted if they have had several deletions and warnings before. I got a week's suspension twice for posts that were 'not in the spirit' and both times they explicitly said they were getting fed up of me. I expect that barracker has been deleted and reported many times too.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 28/05/2019 14:04

there seems to be a bit of concern about whether our guidelines have changed. They haven't.

Oh but they really do seem to change around quite a bit Michael and the ‘not in the spirit’ reasoning given frequently is very hard to determine the exact meaning of. That will be different for everyone and it certainly seems to be different from moderator to moderator. It is actually extremely difficult to have meaningful and accurate conversations about our own lives, our bodies, our experiences with men, and to stay within MN guidelines for this specific board. AIBU is more ‘anything goes’ but feminist issues are being unfairly and stringently moderated to a point I find bordering on outright misogyny. To have special rules just for the feminist board, that can be interpreted differently from moderator to moderator... I’m not sure any of this is reasonable.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 28/05/2019 14:06

I think Freedom Programme training for the mods is an excellent idea.

I know it's normally women only but maybe they could stretch a point on this occasion & include Michael.

R0wantrees · 28/05/2019 14:09

I think Freedom Programme training for the mods is an excellent idea.

I think it can be bought in for organisations teams etc

freedomprogramme.co.uk/

TalkingintheDark · 28/05/2019 14:10

Wonderful that you’re back, Barracker ❤️

And ChickenonaMug, as a fellow survivor I second everything you say. Thank you ❤️

Datun · 28/05/2019 14:11

Welcome back barracker. And I'm glad to re-read your original post.

Fantastic insight.

And I have to hand it to you, you held the line with true guts.

ChickenonaMug

Another outstanding post.

💐

TalkingintheDark · 28/05/2019 14:12

Great post about coercive control, R0wantrees

terryleather · 28/05/2019 14:12

Barracker is back!!!!

This is excellent news.

R0wantrees · 28/05/2019 14:12

MN FWR additional rules:
(extract)
"That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them."

FermatsTheorem · 28/05/2019 14:15

Welcome back Barracker.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 28/05/2019 14:15

I have no problem with names. People can choose their own name and I don’t think enforcing gender rules on naming is what anyone here wants

Pronouns are a different kettle of fish, obviously

R0wantrees · 28/05/2019 14:17

TalkingintheDark

Its realy worth reading in full.

See also thread:

"To understand coercive control.
To REALLY understand it, you need to understand how manipulators work. The things they know they can do, to bring us to our knees." (continues)
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1106169274761129984.html

twitter account with resources & details of events/newsletter etc:
twitter.com/CCCBuryStEd

Can we stop being obedient soon, or will this coercion continue for evermore?
Datun · 28/05/2019 14:24

R0wantrees

That post on how to abuse using proxies is astonishing.

Without naming names, we have seen that exact process in action in recent times. Right down to proxies, and accusing the target of being the problem.

R0wantrees · 28/05/2019 14:32

Datun yes.

The patterns of narcissistic control are the same regardless of the person's sex.

bettybeans · 28/05/2019 14:33

While I appreciate the difficulties of moderating a forum like this (and this type of subject matter) I do wonder if there's maybe scope to consider the track record of the reporter as well as that of the person reported. You can easily see a situation in which a poster would accrue a list or issues attached to their user name without having really ever done anything to warrant the attention of the mods.

Maybe this happens anyway. Maybe that's why things were ultimately sorted out. Maybe I'm trying to teach Grandma to suck eggs here. Just thought I'd mention it given that we know there's a dedicated monitoring group watching everything that happens on this board. That sort of behaviour doesn't seem to align well with the spirit of MN either, to me.

ChickenonaMug · 28/05/2019 14:40

Talkinginthe Dark
Flowers

EmpressLesbianInChair · 28/05/2019 14:42

Just thought I'd mention it given that we know there's a dedicated monitoring group watching everything that happens on this board. That sort of behaviour doesn't seem to align well with the spirit of MN either, to me.

It's just the same, really, as if an MRA group was constantly monitoring Relationships and reporting every LTB.

R0wantrees · 28/05/2019 14:48

Lily Maynard article, 'The Wanking Man – how public masturbation is normalised'

(extract)
"From a very young age we are told to stay close to our parents, not to speak to strange men in the park, or by the toilets, not to walk down alleyways… The girls in my family were raised with the mantra, “If you’re lost, ask a lady with a baby, if you can’t find a lady ask a policeman”.

My mum remembers the other kids on the street warning each other to stay away from the priest from the church at the top of the road back in the 40s. We all had certain teachers we gave a wide berth in the 70s and 80s. We viewed the rhododendron bushes in the park with suspicion, we knew that bad men in raincoats lurked there- indeed sometimes one of our number would spring from the bushes clutching a few torn pages of a ‘men’s magazine’ and we would gawp at the tacky- sometimes literally- pictures inside.

We don’t like to say it, but all women know that men wank in public…

no, Tarquin, obviously not all men… yes, I expect there probably has been a case of a woman doing it… yes, point taken, Tarquin…

I’ll say it again. MEN WANK IN PUBLIC.

This is one of the very many good reasons that women need spaces away from bepenised persons AKA men. This is one of the very good reasons that we need to be able to name these bepenised persons AKA men. It doesn’t matter if he’s sporting fetching pink lippy, a moustache, a Man United football kit or none of the above. It doesn’t matter if he’s drawn to all things glittery and girly or he has a beer gut and drive a freight lorry for a living." (continues)

lilymaynard.com/the-wanking-man-how-public-masturbation-is-normalised/

arranbubonicplague · 28/05/2019 14:49

Good to see Barracker back.

@michaelmumsnet I do sometimes wonder what the age-profile of the moderators is.

JellySlice · 28/05/2019 14:54

@MichaelMumsnet @MNHQ

What about the posts that were deleted because they quoted/mentioned/referred to a deleted post? Will they be restored, too?

R0wantrees · 28/05/2019 15:02

What about the posts that were deleted because they quoted/mentioned/referred to a deleted post? Will they be restored, too?

The reason given for this thread not going into Classics was (I think) that there were 'too many deletions'.

Are there?

BitOfFun · 28/05/2019 15:05

Rowantrees, is it bad that I am still sniggering at "Bigender"? Grin

littlbrowndog · 28/05/2019 15:06

Thanks rowan , chicken and barracker

As said before changing the way I see stuff and no doubt for others as well

R0wantrees · 28/05/2019 15:06

BitOfFun

We should all of us never lose our sense of humour! Grin