Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Can we stop being obedient soon, or will this coercion continue for evermore?

652 replies

theOtherPamAyres · 25/05/2019 23:14

I know that Mumsnet moderators are hot on keeping respectful debate and for that reason does not allow misgendering, certain terms, and the like. It's their site and they make the rules and I respect that. This topic isn't about Mumsnet, it's about the growing confidence of feminists to refuse to use the terms and language of gender.

Karen Ingala Smith, speaking to the Womens Select Committee, showed how it could be done. As a result of the clarity of her language, she was able to cut through the nonsense and make her points forcefully. In contrast, Janet from Womens Aid, with her convoluted language about gender, sounded confused and muddle-headed.

When we are forced to use words like 'transwoman' and 'she' - for fear of prosecution, civil actions, job losses, imprisonment for contempt of court, exclusion, abuse and physical assaults - we have helped to normalise transgenderism. In effect, we are saying that a man can be a woman.

I believe that we can no longer support Trans Rights by default, by caving in and going with the flow. At some stage we have to assert the right to use our own terms - because we can't wait for legal precedents and government reviews. The more refusniks and recusants there are, the more confidence will grow.

What tips and tricks of language did you start using when you could no longer kowtow to the demand for obedience?
How did you write or speak about people/men/women who identify as trans? (Did you see what I did there?)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
GrinitchSpinach · 30/05/2019 18:53

I'm sure Jewish and Muslim MNers find it incredibly hurtful and offensive to have a fundamental part of their faiths referred to as child abuse. Yet that is not banned in discussions about circumcision. Why the double-standard?

Quite right, JellySlice. Clearly, as Orwell wrote, "some animals are more equal than others."

FermatsTheorem · 30/05/2019 19:03

Jessica: To make specific exceptions and rules just for one group of people, seems incredibly biased and unfair to everyone else. MNHQ are making special allowances that they do not make in any other circumstance, and only applies to the feminism board. That’s misogyny.

Absolutely. And furthermore, making special allowances at the behest of male individuals.

Caitlin Moran's test, people.

Would women get away with making demands like this? Hell no! (See for example, threads passim about banks/ businesses sending letters to Mrs Fred Bloggs, refusing to acknowledge that Fred Blogg's wife is still in fact Freda Jones, not having fields for Ms on their forms, having forms which insist you put in your "maiden name" as soon as you tick Ms, demanding to know if you're a male doctor or a female doctor when you choose the Dr field on the form).

Do men have to put up with this? Again, hell no! (Has anyone ever seen a TRA register for a certain fruit farm and demand they beef up their moderating? They wouldn't even try it, much less get listened to when they got there).

RiversDisguise · 30/05/2019 20:30

Caitlin Moran? Has she ever publicly stood up for women against transactivists, or is she waiting for the tide to change?

It has been a long time since I skimread her vacuous book (HTBAW) but I seem to think she was mindlessly pro-trans.

FermatsTheorem · 30/05/2019 20:34

Oh, I think Caitlin is keeping her head well down. In fact wouldn't be surprised if she was mindlessly pro trans. But having said that, I do think her rule of thumb re. identifying misogyny is spot on: "Are men being expected to do this?"

(If only she learns to apply it to trans issues, the scales may fall from her eyes. Even just asking herself the questions "do transmen gain male privilege or do they still get the fuzzy end of the lollipop? In a head-to-head online between a transwoman and a woman, who wins?" might giver her some food for thought.)

TheAngryLlama · 31/05/2019 06:42

Moran once memorably described another woman as a mimsy bastard quisling fuck.
Right back at you, darling.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 31/05/2019 15:23

Moran once memorably described another woman as a mimsy bastard quisling fuck.

Hmm. She sounds nice. I'm not even sure what that means!

Barracker, very relieved to have you back.

SirVixofVixHall · 31/05/2019 16:11

A quisling is a traitor/collaborator.

theOtherPamAyres · 01/06/2019 11:25

I liked this exchange about language between Angela Crawley MP (SNP, self proclaimed trans ally) and Karen Ingala Smith at the Select Committee Hearing:

Q570 Angela Crawley:
On that point, I hear what you are saying and there are people who have similar feelings to you, but if, for example, the Women’s Aid Federation was to provide clear guidance, as referred to with Scottish Women’s Aid, which states, “Women’s services are for gender‑based violence against women and that includes sexism, homophobia and transphobia”, would you or organisations akin to your view take exception to that?

Karen Ingala Smith: Absolutely, we would.

Q571 Angela Crawley: May I ask why?

Karen Ingala Smith: Transphobia is not the same as male violence against women. I even object to the phrase “gender‑based violence”. Gender is a hierarchy, it is the way that sex inequality is maintained, it is a socialisation set of rules and it is enforced on young people, so I find that language very problematic.

We reject gender. We are of the female sex and we do not choose to identify into male violence, to being victims of rape and to being victims of intimate partner homicide. It is not about gender identity and gender; it is about sex and it is about male violence against women.

It's a great pity that the Select Committee listened to the likes of Stonewall and Jess Bradley and only now are getting some home truths.

OP posts:
theOtherPamAyres · 01/06/2019 11:27

It's a great pity that the Select Committee listened to the likes of Stonewall and Jess Bradley and only now are getting some home truths.

That last sentence is my observation, not part of the hearing.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 01/06/2019 12:35

Haha I wish Karen had said that Grin but yes that was my favourite bit. Spot on.

Datun · 01/06/2019 12:44

'Gendered violence' is a big, fat lie, designed to minimise.

Gendered violence would mean there was an issue with transmen being violent towards transwomen.

C8H10N4O2 · 01/06/2019 13:19

Barracker's Medium article has been censored.

Its archived here (not by me, thanks to the archivist)

C8H10N4O2 · 01/06/2019 13:19

This time with link:

archive.is/5etdB

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2019 13:20

FFS.

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 01/06/2019 13:51

Gendered violence would mean there was an issue with transmen being violent towards transwomen.

Really need a Like button!!

sackrifice · 01/06/2019 13:53

Feminist wiki on twitter is willing to rehost that article. If Barracker contacts her somehow...

Michelleoftheresistance · 01/06/2019 13:58

Barracker's Medium article has been censored.

Bit late for that now.

And censoring it just proves Barracker's point some more considering stifling it on MN was a major own goal to start with.

And plenty of us have archived copied to continue to strategically share to demonstrate what is being done to women.

Barracker · 01/06/2019 13:59

Barracker's Medium article has been censored

Well, would you look at that, so it has.

My sincere thanks to whomever had the foresight to archive it - seriously, thanks. I hadn't thought to do it myself.

Well, the interest had died down a little after ~4000 claps. This should ensure it gets Streisanded all over the internet again, thanks to that archive.

Nothing people like better than searching out a censored piece of writing to see how awful it was.

Censorship. Gotta love a trier.

pinchpoint · 01/06/2019 14:06
Grin

Whatever the lurkers do today - DON'T read Barracker's piece drawing an analogy between compelling pronoun usage and the administration of disinhibiting drugs!

Seriously.

You wouldn't want to have too much to think...

Nothing to see here. Move along.

PencilsInSpace · 01/06/2019 14:24
Angry

There's an invitation to republish on Uncommon Ground, @Barracker -

@lblwcri
Send it on to [email protected] and we’ll be happy to publish it!

twitter.com/lblwcri/status/1134788320616075264

C8H10N4O2 · 01/06/2019 14:25

@Barracker

The offer of hosting came from twitter user "feministwiki" and the hosting is here:
blogs.feministwiki.org/blog/2019/05/11/the-feministwiki-hosts-blogs-for-you/

I don't know the site one way or the other but I've seen them offer to host stuff censored by sexist platforms before.

Medium keep asking me for money but I stopped subscribing when my daily recommendations were filled with TRA and frequently sexist propaganda. I look for data driven articles from any perspective and yet somehow the recommendations are always for shit propaganda articles reflecting the same narrow viewpoint.

Barracker · 03/06/2019 12:08

Thrilled that the banned Medium article has now been published by uncommongroundmedia.com!

uncommongroundmedia.com/banned-from-medium-pronouns-are-rohypnol/

LangCleg · 03/06/2019 12:26

Yay! Great news.

Michelleoftheresistance · 03/06/2019 12:34

Good news Barracker !

Although I was quite enjoying sharing a 'banned article, so awful you're not allowed to read it' and people reading it going - wtf about this had be banned ffs?

It was quite nicely illustrating the failed grip on sanity held by the bannermen.

Barracker · 03/06/2019 12:52
Grin