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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids response to piece in Mail tomorrow

574 replies

EweSurname · 25/05/2019 16:14

Looking forward to seeing what drops

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/press-enquiry-from-the-mail-on-sunday-25th-may-2019.html

We are very proud of the training we offer to schools and we have a proven record of helping teachers to support vulnerable children who simply want to get along with their lessons like any of their classmates.

We are disappointed to find that a school governor has made a covert recording of our training because our presentations are not held in secret and all of the scientific and legal information we offer is publicly available and well-tested.

We are surprised to see that a Church of England rector is complaining about our training when we are included in the CoE guidance on support for transgender people, which can be found here.

Part of the work of Mermaids is giving training talks to schools. These talks are well received and are an important part of how we promote an inclusive and informed approach to trans children and those who support them.

We have been contacted by the Mail on Sunday who are doing an article about one such talk. This post is our response, in accordance with our policy of posting our replies to media queries for the benefit of anyone interested in our activities.

OP posts:
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ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 27/05/2019 00:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NoSquirrels · 27/05/2019 00:09

If you filter the comments by ‘Best rated’ the top posts are ALL saying, essentially (I am paraphrasing):

“FFS, children are children, let them grow up before they decide.”

Which, Daily Mail or not, you cannot possibly disagree with.

NoSquirrels · 27/05/2019 00:16

Remember when we were young and we told our gran we liked a TV show. And then for whey birthday and xmas and Easter they kept buying stuff from that TV show. And you got fed up of it but you darent tell your gran for fear of hurting their feelings. You couldn't decide what was worse. The guilt of hurting their feelings or they guilt that they will continue to spend money on stuff you dont even want.

Perfect analogy, Sarah.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 27/05/2019 00:19

My local mlm seller always writes quasi-sciencey sounding adverts where she bangs on about her "background in..." and her "training" etc

All very deliberately worded to skate just this side of the truth yet appear very convincing.

All sound verrrry familiar here...

R0wantrees · 27/05/2019 00:21

what is mlm please?

NoSquirrels · 27/05/2019 00:25

MLM = multi-level-marketing aka pyramid scheme selling.

So - another example of when someone is in too deep to admit to the batshittery and has to keep peddling the lie or the sunk costs fallacy will crumble around them.

ILoveMaxiBondi · 27/05/2019 00:26

Multi level marketing- things like juice plus, forever living etc. It’s the companies that are always needing “5 members for my team” on Facebook and have these fantastic products they can’t actually sell but are trying to convince the world they’re billionaires and you should be a rep too.

R0wantrees · 27/05/2019 00:31

Ah ok thank you. I only knew them as pyramid schemes.

When I heard the December training, it reminded me of the way time-shares used to be sold.

PencilsInSpace · 27/05/2019 09:50

The Act also effectively permits service providers not to allow a trans person to access separate-sex or single-sex services—on a case-by-case basis, where exclusion is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”.

The term “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” is not a blanket rule and cannot be applied as a matter of policy.

It is intended solely in respect to the impact of one individual by another individual in that specific situation at any given moment in time.

The Act says no such thing. 'Case by case' comes from EHRC's dodgy statutory code (page 198):

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/services-public-functions-and-associations-statutory-code-practice

While the Code carries a lot of legal weight it is not the law. There is an ongoing Women & Equalities inquiry into enforcing the equality act and the role of the EHRC. Some of us highlighted the problems with 'case by case' in our written responses, pointing out that the effect of this additional requirement is that if a women-only service wishes to use this exception and is legally challenged by a tw, the case becomes personal.

The test is no longer whether it's justified and proportionate for women to have female only space in a specific circumstance. The test is now whether this particular tw is 'woman enough' for female service users to be expected to turn a blind eye to their maleness and accept them personally into what was a female only space.

'Case by case' means that no-one has the right to run women only services any more. You can have it as a policy but 'case by case' overrules your policy so you can never guarantee female only space to your service users.

There is evidence that the additional requirements in the EHRC Statutory Code were added under pressure from trans lobbyists. The post consultation report contains the following:

vii. Various transsexual stakeholder groups responded to the formal consultation and also participated in the parallel consultation events taking place on the non-statutory guidance.

Feedback from the consultation events was incorporated into the employment and services codes where appropriate, particularly on issues of confidentiality, use of single sex services and the legal definition of transgender.

and …

e. Services, public functions and associations
• A number of concerns were raised about the exceptions, in particular the exceptions for charities, single sex services and separate services.
These sections have been revised as a result.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/equality-act-codes-practice-post-consultation-report

Gires and Press for Change are among the listed respondents, as are a:gender - a group for trans civil servants. Stonewall are listed but this was 2011, before they turned into transwall.

Karon Monaghan QC gave oral evidence to the inquiry on 31/10/18:

It may be that the legislation itself should carve out exemptions for refuges or for rape crisis centres; it would have to be defined more broadly. But for certain safe spaces, so that people know and we don’t have to go through this exercise of proportionality and we don’t have to identify precisely what the issues are in every individual case, we can say, “We have a blanket policy and that is because there is an exemption.”

Even if Parliament hasn’t got the time at the moment to change the exemptions, at the very least there should be very clear guidance, so that people feel confident saying, “I’m sorry, but with this service—”.

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/enforcing-the-equality-act-the-law-and-the-role-of-the-equality-and-human-rights-commission/oral/92165.html

Karen Ingala Smith also highlighted the problem of 'case by case' when she gave oral evidence on 22/05/19 (transcript not up yet)

parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/0d07ff13-636e-4b51-a946-2877e583dc4c

So Susie Green can underline 'case by case' if she wants to but that does not make it the law. She should understand that 'case by case' is being actively questioned in this inquiry, along with several other items of BS in the EHRC Statutory Code.

Mermaids response to piece in Mail tomorrow
LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 27/05/2019 09:54

I see the scouts have decided to backtrack on their gender/sex decisions (in the times). There was a withering comment about lobby groups.

Datun · 27/05/2019 10:47

Placemarking

R0wantrees · 27/05/2019 10:47

From Sept 2018 TRA Conference, 'We're Still Here'

TheHarpySings reported:
(extract)
"2) Education Panel:

There were 4 panelists and I didn’t get all their names. One was called something like “Zed”, who is NB (female) and works in a school. They want a trans ally in everyone school.

Anna Carlisle was also on the panel- she works at Goldsmiths and is a colleague of Natascha Kennedy.

This panel’s recommendations was to get the pro-gender extremist philosophy in at school governor level and find allies.

Some of their examples of where policy was good but inclusive practise was not good were hilarious. Apparently one of the panelists (who works for a charity) went to a school with an amazingly liberal dress code but none of the kids violated gender norms… so obviously there was a problem!

They want every single policy to be “inclusive”.

Jane Fae chipped in saying how sad she was that Natascha Kennedy got “monstered” in the Times that weekend and asked what could they do about “safety” re: universities with “known transphobic academics” like Kathleen Stock.

One panellist said naming and shaming doesn’t do any good. Anna Carlisle (NK’s colleague) said she was interested in what management’s response to the Times story would be.

One of the other panellists (a recently transitioned TW teacher) described the current events as a “war”.

Zed talked about offering a “safe space” for trans kids who maybe couldn’t be trans at home.. either because parents are unaware or unsupportive so the kids change at school and essentially live a double life.

Helen Webbeley (!!!!) then said she’d seen so much suffering of trans kids and asked about how to help kids who were trans who couldn’t face going to school.

Mermaids are apparently interested in researching the crossover with trans/ autism and also sexual orientation. Also “queering” PE as a lot of trans kids don’t get involved and spend a lot of time online.

Notable misogynist Adrian Harrop then chipped in asking about Transgender Trend’s school pack (which, he was very sad face to say, is the top hit on Google) and how we can stop this sick filth getting into schools.

Anna Carlisle said the Transgender Trend pack “made her sick… it was so mean!”

Zed and another panellist said that their networks (through LGBT sectors in teaching unions) were trying to “make schools aware” not to pay attention to the TransgenderTrend packs. Apparently the Mermaids resources have been ok’d by the Human Rights Commission and will “trump” the Transgender Trend packs. (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

DR Helen Webberley & her husband Dr Mike Webberley are suspended by the GMC
In late 2018 Dr Helen Webberley was found guilty of criminal offences due to running unregulated online clinic GenderGP.
Mermaids has actively supported, signposted parents/young people and promoted Dr Helen Webberley's private business & its affirmative approach.
recent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3588654-dr-mike-webberley-suspended?

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/05/2019 10:54

Whoops, I just googled Transgender School pack...

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/05/2019 10:54

*trend, but still works!

R0wantrees · 27/05/2019 10:57

Susie Green (CEO Mermaids Charity) tweeting from WPATH 2018

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416169-Susie-Green

Susie Green does not understand Safeguarding frameworks. Susie Green has not background in health, social care, child development, medical ethics or psychology. Consequently she & her charity represent a risk to damaging Safeguarding frameworks & the Duty of Care owed to all children

see also thread from the networking/lobbying event:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414279-Can-we-talk-about-WPATH

Mermaids response to piece in Mail tomorrow
JackyHolyoake · 27/05/2019 11:01

As I've said before, that very first thought of "case-by-case" situations means that sex-segregated safe spaces cease to exist in your mind, since it indicates that these spaces should or could be mixed sex.

It is exactly the same thought process that Barracker described so eloquently with regard to use of pronouns. It is designed to weaken the position.

There are either sex-segregated safe spaces or there are not. There are no "shades of grey" here. I know on which side of that line I stand.

R0wantrees · 27/05/2019 11:04

It is exactly the same thought process that Barracker described so eloquently with regard to use of pronouns. It is designed to weaken the position.

(extract)
"Incongruent pronouns also make your brain work much harder; not just when you are using them, but when you are receiving them as information. You are working constantly to keep that story straight in your head. Male or female? Which one, again? Concentrate harder. Ignore your instincts, ignore your reaction.

And that’s just you. You’re already aware of all the pertinent information, already alert, you know the score, no flies on you.

And you’re still affected emotionally and instinctively by incongruent pronouns, nouns, and names. Despite your efforts to be immune. You’re not immune to this effect. You can know perfectly the actual sex of a male person, and yet you will still react differently if someone calls them she instead of he.

So what then, is the impact on everyone who isn't even aware yet, hasn't fully comprehended yet what’s going on?" (continues)

medium.com/@barrakerr/pronouns-are-rohypnol-dbcd1cb9c2d9

see current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3595379-Can-we-stop-being-obedient-soon-or-will-this-coercion-continue-for-evermore

justasking111 · 27/05/2019 12:10

I just googled scouts ended up in the USA a trans person was shot dead in a crowd of people. Shock

On another note the international scout jamboree is to offer condoms at the festival.

R0wantrees · 27/05/2019 12:43

This refers to a tragic situation in 2017 when a 21 year old student named Scout Schultz was shot dead by US police.

www.itv.com/news/2017-09-18/armed-lgbt-student-scout-schultz-shot-dead-by-us-police/

S1naidSucks · 27/05/2019 12:54

The person was shot dead because they had a knife and refused to put it down. They were perceived to be a danger to the public. The fact that they were trans has absolutely nothing to do with the reason they were shot. No doubt the story would have been retold in a different way to suit the TRAs.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/05/2019 12:56

I found this excellent article about mermaids via twitter from 2 years ago.

Very pertinent to this thread.

4thwavenow.com/2017/10/21/should-mermaids-be-permitted-to-influence-uk-public-policy-on-trans-kids/

justasking111 · 27/05/2019 12:56

Sorry this happened last week in Texas.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48332977

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/05/2019 12:59

Final para of that article:

Meanwhile, it should, unfortunately, be recognised that it is never safe to take on trust any statement that comes from Mermaids.

Coyoacan · 27/05/2019 14:37

justasking

How sad but how is that last post relevant to the discussion here?

Birdsfoottrefoil · 27/05/2019 14:38

just I found this incongruous

^”Figures show that transgender people, particularly trans women of colour, are disproportionately likely to be the victims of violent attacks in the US.
In many cases, such as Ms Booker's, this violence is fatal.
According to Human Rights Campaign (HRC), at least 26 trans people were killed across the country last year - the majority of whom were African-American trans women.”^

Disproportionately likely but only 26 killed last year? Obviously each is a tragedy but do they have no clue about homicide rates??