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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jezebel.com lumps GC feminists in with the alt-right

234 replies

CaptSkippy · 11/05/2019 17:53

Yes, I know that I should not waste my time with a site like Jezebel. I saw this post a few days ago and skipped over it as total nonsense. Today I saw it trending on their front page:

jezebel.com/the-unholy-alliance-of-trans-exclusionary-radical-femin-1834120309

This must be deliberate right?

OP posts:
LangCleg · 13/05/2019 22:09

Not going with Lang. Her food likes are disgusting

Oi oi Dog.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 22:29

They claim to, but I think it's a combination of a youth fad, confusion about gender stereotypes and sex roles and comorbid psychological issues

Five/ten years ago maybe they would have been Emos? You used to see large groups of young Emos hanging around in various spots around the city. I don't see that anymore.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 13/05/2019 23:08

Emos were all the the thing about 15 years ago when I was at school. I also remember everyone suddenly coming out as bisexual after that Tattoo song. Obviously some people actually were but most of us had an awkward snog or two then went back to being boring and straight.

My daughter isn't even 1 yet. I wonder what "the thing" will be in 15 years time. I can't think of anything worse than this gender pick-and-mix nightmare but I'm sure society will find a way to out do itself again. Makes me feel very unwell to think about it.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 13/05/2019 23:11

I think a lot of people like me will have moved away from the GC movement since the ‘USA incident’

I think you might be quite mistaken. See, most people realise that Posie is like, on person with her own mind and free to do whatever she likes, I mean, I don't think that she even 'IDs' as a radfem does she? I am sure shes more from the 'free speech' side of things. So when one person does something some disagree with, why on earth would that change peoples beliefs about the actual subject? I find such thinking rather odd tbh. Its very similar to the many people who will claim 'I was a feminist until I saw a woman posting that she actually hates all men, so now I am not a feminist as thats nasty'. Its just, strange.

And people shouldn't really find it odd that many feminists refused to publically denounce Posie for doing what she chose to do. Why on earth should they? And why are some people so invested in getting people to do this kind of thing? Reminds me of when a couple of posters got a bee in their bonnets about her fundraiser and would pop up on most threads being all 'what about Posie taking all your money and doing nothing?!', who oddly went quite silent when the AHF campaign was so sucessful Grin

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 13/05/2019 23:16

Saying that the numbers are increasing due to media etc is interesting, for example between 2015-2017 the number of people identifying as gay/lesbian/bi increased .3%, that’s quite a big jump in terms of numbers in only 2 years.

Lots of people lived in the closet for years for fear of what people may think. Is it not logical that as society becomes more accepting, more people come ‘out’ rather than the numbers increasing?

I would take this as a reason if it was a jump such as 0.2%, which as you say is a large jump in 2 years. However, its something like a 4000% increase in kids saying they are trans...which surely, if 0.2% is a big increase, 4000% is absolutely insane and there simply has to be many more reasons at play than simply 'its more accepted now'

Datun · 13/05/2019 23:35

4000% is absolutely insane and there simply has to be many more reasons at play than simply 'its more accepted now'

Seventy six children in one school, in Brighton, identifying as trans.

Ten girls in the same year, coming out as boys, simultaneously mind you, at a girls' school in London.

No doubt it's just a huge coincidence...

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 14/05/2019 00:13

I’m talking about hidden conditions. There is so much about the human body and mind that we haven’t even begun exploring, I don’t know how it can be shut down with a blasé attitude.

I’m perfectly willing to accept that trans people are suffering a mental illness or an intersection of fragile mental health and a toxic social context created by porn, inequality and anxiety about climate change.

But the idea that there is some innate sense of being a man or being a woman based on some amorphous gender essence is nonsense.

I am a woman because I am biologically female. Had I been born in a male body, I would be a man. It’s really that simple. Beyond biology is how your personality interests with your social environment.

The thing is, humans are binary in biological terms, we are sexually dimorphic because we are mammals. That’s material reality.

I believe the idea that if you don’t feel like a man, you must be a woman is a failure of logic. Since the only other category available is the other sex, the assumption is that this “not this sex” feeling must mean the individual experiencing the crisis is of the other sex.

The categories of masculine and feminine are socially constructed. Fluttering eyelashes or a loud voice are not intrinsically male or female; it’s just in this cultural context they are considered female or male. There is no biological reality intrinsic to pink or blue or skirts and trousers, that’s about culture.

A more rational approach, which is what radfems argue, is the deconstruction of those gendered categories.

It’s instructive that so many of the TRAs are middle-aged, white men with some resources. That is the group who have the most to lose by deconstructing gender categories, (and hence male privilege). It’s why they are enabled by other men. Men wearing dresses and pretending to be women are no threat to the patriarchy. Men questioning the cultural construction of masculinity; yeah, dangerous that.

In any event, constructing public policy on the shaky theory that there might be some unknown and unmeasurable hidden condition, seems foolish at best and at worst a threat to reality.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 14/05/2019 00:23

Seventy six children in one school, in Brighton, identifying as trans.

Wow, I thought DSDs school was bad, with 5 so far in her year all deciding they are transboys (all in the same friendship clique also) and one 'transgirl' so far 'coming out' but has since been excluded (long story short, he was clearly jumping on the bandwagon and had previous for dodgy behaviour towards girls but was allowed a very short time of being in the girls loos and such anyway despite previous form Hmm )

76 in one school..yeah clearly just small changes because social acceptance is going up. No social contagion and bandwagon jumping to see here. Nope, not at all.

CaptSkippy · 14/05/2019 08:20

I think a lot has to do with social contagion. People read of a thing and recognise some or all of it and feel it must apply to them aswell.

I find it very telling that in Iran being trans is legal, but being gay or lesbian is not. Those being convicted for being gay/lesbian are told to transsition or face the death-penalty. That should be clear proof that accepting people as trans is easier than accepting people as gay or lesbian.

I remember how TMZ talked about Bruce Jenner before it became Kaitlyn Jenner. They scorned Bruce for getting a blow-out, but praised Kaitlyn for sppearing female. Very curious.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 14/05/2019 08:32

Great post, DancelikeEmmaGoldman

GammonNosher · 14/05/2019 08:42

Wow! You would think reports like those would be impossible to suppress! Scary!

Datun · 14/05/2019 09:25

I’m talking about hidden conditions. There is so much about the human body and mind that we haven’t even begun exploring, I don’t know how it can be shut down with a blasé attitude.

Even if a female essence was discovered in transitioning men, it still doesn't change their sex. Because sex not a description of an essence. It's a description of reproductive potential.

It's unbelievably tiresome to have to constantly counter but what if it was like this, or that, or we add this to the mix, what if I do my homework as soon as I get home tomorrow, can I stay up late tonight, what if I walk the dog, what if I help wash up???

Strewth.

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2019 09:26

Exactly, Datun.

GlorianaCervixia · 14/05/2019 10:45

I’m fairly certain the writer is a transwoman. The boring, long-winded prose style is a dead giveaway.

CaptSkippy · 14/05/2019 11:21

Transgenderism is like a religion where people insert god in the gaps of scientific knowledge.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 14/05/2019 12:40

This is exactly it. It really is the God of the Gaps argument which is funny when it comes from atheists.

LangCleg · 14/05/2019 12:43

God of the Gaps explains it perfectly!

spagbowlexplosion · 14/05/2019 13:04

Maybe so, but I still think there’s more to be discovered. Biologically men and woman will always be XX / XY but I wouldn’t be surprised if research led to discovering real differences in brains/genetics of trans people.
A few hundred years ago, if you had a headache they drilled holes in your head to release bad demons... we are discovering all the time.
The Iran point is also something I find interesting. It seems in Iran, if you are gay they say you are trans, whereas a lot of UK people think trans people are just confused gays!
The issue really is only entirely relevant where biological advantages come into play such as sport and woman-only spaces, which is obviously a big issue that needs air-time and support.
I do still 100% stand by my original point though, if wanting to raise awareness of attacks on woman’s rights, best not to join up with anti-woman organisations to do so.
In the scheme of things, more woman are likely to need an abortion, contraception, financial support, leave an abusive marriage or wear whatever she wants than they are to be personally affected by transwoman being known as woman - which is where I think it through into doubt, is it really about preventing further oppression or spreading it? Everyone has different reasons and opinions I guess.

SocksKnitter · 14/05/2019 14:04

There's a vast baggy disparate mass of women with all kinds of different backgrounds - yes, black and white, young and old, atheists and Catholics, Muslims and Jews, Brexiters and anti-Brexiters - all of whom will defend the right to be gender critical.

Also increasing numbers of men from all those backgrounds.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 14/05/2019 14:10

Maybe so, but I still think there’s more to be discovered. Biologically men and woman will always be XX / XY but I wouldn’t be surprised if research led to discovering real differences in brains/genetics of trans people.

I thought trans people didn't want being trans to be a diagnosable condition and that the concept of gender dysphoria was now transphobic?

spagbowlexplosion · 14/05/2019 14:43

Admittedly, I’m not really up to date on what the thoughts are from the trans community on that (or anything!) the very few trans people I do know have always been open about having gender dysphoria though and it’s what they say when discussing being trans.

I think for society as a whole though, more research into Transgenderism is needed. It must be incredibly hard for some people going through it, especially young people. But, I also think more research would be helpful in differentiating those with AGP. In those cases, I don’t really care if a man wants to wear a dress and wig for whatever reason, not my life but they are not the same as transgender and should not be classed as such and there should be no discussion on including them in the same category.

I do think some of the hostility on here is clearly caused by mainly having dealings with/hearing about the AGP and mouthy ‘suck my lady dick’ types rather than the large proportion of trans people who are normal people who just want to live their lives.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 14/05/2019 15:22

Also increasing numbers of men from all those backgrounds.

When leafleting last autumn I found that as soon as you explained the principle of Self ID men who were husbands and fathers became instantly gender critical. They didn't want the women and girls they loved to have to share changing rooms, wards, etc with males however those males might identify. The man in the street (literally) doesn't think transwomen are women.

Justhadathought · 14/05/2019 15:35

I think for society as a whole though, more research into Transgenderism is needed

There has already been lots research - but unfortunately anything which does not support the narrative is suppressed; not reported etc. Note the researcher at Bath Spa university who had years of experience with trans issues, and wanted to do a research topic on de-transitioning. That caused an uproar, didn't it.

And the professor who has just had his twitter account blocked for tweeting about his findings......or the doctors and specialists at the Tavistock who just recently said that they saw a lot of transitioning as a form of gay conversion therapy etc

The more public criticism or questioning the less fashionable the trend will be. It is in no doubt a trend - with big money and vested interests behind it.I think you should look back over the multiple threads on here - because all of this has been said before.

Regarding what you see as a hostility....It really is not just a few violent and abusive activists....The meetings cancelled by venues with just minutes notice because of phone calls from trans people and their allies, and then having attendees, including experts and professional people, having to walk across towns and cities in the rain, in order to reach the hastily established new venue......The constant bad faith trolling on here.....the left-liberal media stitch-up.....the scary proposition of our children & grandchildren being exposed to this damaging nonsense..the people being taken to court...or questioned by police......the overt bullying and intimidation....and the pure insult of men telling women what it means to be a woman.......brave, intelligent women being threatened with their loss of livelihood.....the sheer totalitarian suppression that is typical of this movement.

Datun · 14/05/2019 16:06

Well said Justhadathought.

The idea that if only we dug a little deeper we might understand is ludicrous when you look at actually what is being done.

These people are more women hating than anyone else.

LangCleg · 14/05/2019 16:22

Maybe so, but I still think there’s more to be discovered.

Mate, we can play the fallacies game all day. This one's called an argument from ignorance.

We can do the fallacy bingo if you like. On the other hand, we could go back to discussing the topic of the thread.