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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jezebel.com lumps GC feminists in with the alt-right

234 replies

CaptSkippy · 11/05/2019 17:53

Yes, I know that I should not waste my time with a site like Jezebel. I saw this post a few days ago and skipped over it as total nonsense. Today I saw it trending on their front page:

jezebel.com/the-unholy-alliance-of-trans-exclusionary-radical-femin-1834120309

This must be deliberate right?

OP posts:
NotTerfNorCis · 13/05/2019 20:12

Justhadathought I know someone very like that. His interests are violent computer games and military history. To him, 'being a woman' means wearing dresses and high heels. It seems to me that he's an immature, nerdy guy who's been looking for 'what's wrong with him' and has found something that lets him be the glamorous victim with tonnes of online support. He's rushing into treatment - I really hope he doesn't regret it.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2019 20:12

I think the explosion in the number of men identifying as transgender is closely linked to the development of the internet and an equivalent explosion in porn.

Absolutely. And the advent of social media is when it really took off.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2019 20:13

Are there now many young, heterosexual men identifying as women?

Yes, IME.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 20:13

Lots of people lived in the closet for years for fear of what people may think. Is it not logical that as society becomes more accepting, more people come ‘out’ rather than the numbers increasing?

Certainly what is happening with young FTM transgenders is that it is young lesbians who are transitioning. I have heard of reports of former groups of young lesbians being ravaged by their transitioning - leaving just one or two self identified lesbians left. Now I don't believe that is because being gay means you really in the wrong body - but that transgenderism is being pushed as the solution to gender non conformity.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 20:15

Yes, IME

Interesting! I'm assuming they do not suffer from dysphoria, though - do they? Is it just a fashion/special thing? What do you see going on?

ThePurportedDoctoress · 13/05/2019 20:15

I haven't even had the much-promised spa weekend, FFS. It's almost like no one is coordinating this.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2019 20:15

If we put together all the cash we’re getting from the right wing, ISIS & the Kremlin, you’d think we could afford to buy a decent-sized island or something.

Bring on TE*F island!

littlbrowndog · 13/05/2019 20:17

Not going with Lang. Her food likes are disgusting

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 20:19

Justhadathought I know someone very like that. His interests are violent computer games and military history. To him, 'being a woman' means wearing dresses and high heels. It seems to me that he's an immature, nerdy guy who's been looking for 'what's wrong with him' and has found something that lets him be the glamorous victim with tonnes of online support. He's rushing into treatment - I really hope he doesn't regret it

I can see how that might happen. I also suspect that many young people on the Autistic spectrum are susceptible; and that certainly seems to be born out in the statistics.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 13/05/2019 20:21

Not going with Lang. Her food likes are disgusting

littlbrowndog, I don’t like Weetabix.

Goosefoot · 13/05/2019 20:21

No, because nationality goes beyond individual belief. But there are things they could do to become French, e.g. apply for citizenship. Abstract identities can be changed.

I tend to think that the formation of identity is more complex than that. People absolutely can have a French identity without being a citizen of France, for example, and in some cases we might even say that French identity is a reason to give people citizenship - because what does citizenship actually mean? Or being a member of an ethnic community, or being black? Even things that seem to have a strong biological basis like being gay or being autistic is an identity that can only form if there is a conceptualisation related to it, and that's not always the case.

And we don't always have control over the way our identity is formed. I'd even say, we may never have much control over it. If I identify as Canadian or British or French or Anglo-Saxon etc is really down to the vagaries of history. In a way I'm all of those things, but they don't all inform my sense of identity.

I think this goes beyond the trans question, a lot of young people seem to be struggling with it - teen years always seem to be a time for that, but somehow right now it seems a little fragile somehow. That could go some way to explaining some of the underlying issues.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2019 20:21

Interesting! I'm assuming they do not suffer from dysphoria, though - do they? Is it just a fashion/special thing? What do you see going on?

They claim to, but I think it's a combination of a youth fad, confusion about gender stereotypes and sex roles and comorbid psychological issues.

I see them needing attention and control over their environments and over others. Desiring to be part of a community. And channeling all their feelings into hating people (mostly us GC types) who they perceive would deny them it.

littlbrowndog · 13/05/2019 20:36

I know. Bloody weetabix on an island

Anyway I think it’s also a class thing to be sure

Nobody I know and I am ordinary like maybe some people go to,college but not to uni. They are pretty happy working and don’t sit alone on reddit and angsting

About their identities

It doesn’t even enter anybody I know the fact that they might be a transgender person.

Badly explained but anyway

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 13/05/2019 20:39

There are many disorders that cannot be explained or seen, how can you be so sure that transgender people are not suffering from a hidden malfunction at birth of being born with the mismatched reproductive organs and chromosomes?

I get where you're coming from and for what it's worth I'm not closed to the idea that medical science will discover some biological basis for trans identities in the future. And for what it's worth i don't think trans people are lying about what they feel or experience, whether or not they're dysphoric I'm happy to believe that they're all reporting their feelings honestly. I believe that they are experiencing something real, and I understand that they believe those feelings represent a "gender identity" and a knowledge of what it's like to be the opposite sex. I believe Christians as well when they tell me that they experience a soul and a personal relationship with God. Maybe one day medical science will find a basis for those feelings as well. But until that day comes I have to take reality as I find it. There is no science to support the idea that a gender identity exists, just like there's no science to support the existence of a soul. And even if there was it wouldn't prove that transwomen literally are women just like a soul wouldn't prove a God exists. So until then, while I support everyone's right to believe whatever they want to believe I don't want either gender beliefs or religion influencing legislation, dictating medical and social policy, or being taught as fact in schools. Not believing in an innate gender doesn't mean I'm denying trans people exist or are lying any more than being an atheist means I'm denying Christians exist. I believe them on the "what", I just think they're wrong about the "why".

I think people found it hard to understand the whole ‘Adam and Steve’ concept when they themselves did not feel it

The difference here for me is that I do experience a sexuality. I understand feeling attracted to the opposite sex so it's no leap to understand feeling attracted to the same sex. But I don't experience a "gender identity" - I have no sense of woman-ness beyond an observation of my biology. I say I have a female body because that's the label given to the phenotype I have, and I call myself a woman because it's a synonym for AHF. Everything else is just my personality, there is no "intrinsic woman-ness" to any of my thoughts, feelings, or interests. They've been shaped to a degree by my socialisation, which I received on the basis of my biology, but they aren't innate. It's less like a homosexual person explaining their sexuality to a heterosexual person, and more like them trying to explain it to an asexual person. But even in that case it's pretty easy to explain. Given that a "gender identity" is something supposedly every person has, and we are all aware of it to the degree that we can tell if it matches our biological sex, and it's so important that it's the ultimate measure of reality over biological sex, I don't think it's a huge ask that just one person should be able to give some kind of coherent explanation for what it actually means. Ironically the most coherent description I've heard so far is Suzie Green's "being a cis woman means you're like Princess barbie" Jelly Baby thing. That makes sense to me. The down side is that if that's the case I've never ever met a "cis gendered woman" and I doubt I ever will. So if the big POMO revelation is just that not all women like pink - yeh, congrats to them, most of us already figured that out.

I think there was a study recently that said trans brains align more closely to that of their desired sex.

I've read a lot of these "lady brain" studies and what they actually show is that certain elements of transwomen's brains (not the entire brain) align more closely with that of the brains of women in the control group than that of the men in the control group, but that over all those elements of the brains of men and transwomen were more similar to each other than either were to women's brains. All the studies I've read suffered the same methodological problems of small sample size (tens of people) and didn't take confounders into account (most notably sexuality). It's also worth noting that our brains are so plastic that even study participants who spent a week at a mindfullness course had brain differences detected afterwards which distinguished them from the control group, so it's hardly surprising that transwomen would have a few minor brain differences. If there's a compelling study out there though I'd love to see it.

I find it interesting that people are so sure of themselves that man=man and there’s nothing else too it?

I don't claim absolute certainty over anything. But at the end of the day, even if they come up with some new medical discovery that lets us create a definition of "woman" that includes transwomen and women but excludes transmen and men, it won't change the underlying problem. Transwomen will still be bigger, stronger, have penises, and be physical indistinguishable from men therefore giving them a male socialisation and making it impossible to determine who is and isn't a threat. They'll still outstrip women in sports and be a danger in prisons. The science behind it, whilst interesting, would have very little practical application.

NotTerfNorCis · 13/05/2019 20:40

People absolutely can have a French identity without being a citizen of France

Perhaps, like a lot of Americans have an Irish identity without having been to Ireland. But the point is, until something concrete happens to make it real, it's just wishful thinking. Nationality can be changed because it's an abstract, human-created concept. Age, sex and species can't because they're biological realities.

Goosefoot · 13/05/2019 20:48

Perhaps, like a lot of Americans have an Irish identity without having been to Ireland. But the point is, until something concrete happens to make it real, it's just wishful thinking. Nationality can be changed because it's an abstract, human-created concept. Age, sex and species can't because they're biological realities.

But I think we often have identity built on top of biology, if that makes sense. And identity is "real" in the sense that the psychological processes or structures involved are real. We can also have an identity buil around something false, made up, like being a Star Trek fan. So it seems like it's a ery flexible and malleable thing.

I am curious if people in the past seemed to be as concerned with this sort of thing. I'm sure they had some sense of identity, but I wonder if t wasn't a bit more immediate?

NotTerfNorCis · 13/05/2019 20:52

Identifying as something doesn't mean you are that thing though, even if you coerce other people to support your delusion. Some identities are easier to assume than others. Not just because of practical considerations (no one can actually become a cat, for instance) but because some things are more socially acceptable than others. Look at what happened to Rachel Dolezal when she pretended to be black. But actually, the difference between skin colours is tiny compared to the difference between biological sexes.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2019 21:17

didn't take confounders into account (most notably sexuality).

Yes. In the studies which used mixed homo and het groups, the the homosexual brains were the only brains to have any structure similarities with women, the heterosexual MTF brains had no similarities to the control women's brains. Interestingly in the main study to do this a difference was found to the control men's brains in an area of the brain related to bodily perception.

Datun · 13/05/2019 21:20

There might well be some kind of biological propensity for a dissociative condition. Or a personality that's not hard and fast.

But I have yet to see, or hear, a single transwoman who is not either AGP, or
who has not been heavily subjected to ingrained stereotypes/homophobia (apart from the obvious misogynistic, bullying bandwagon jumpers).

I might give the notion of a gendered brain more houseroom, if there was even the slightest evidence of it in any transwoman's behaviour. The lack of affinity for women is evident. And, yes, you can put it down to socialisation, but then that's what being a woman is, isn't it? The biology and the socialisation.

If you don't have female biology or female socialisation, but you do have male biology and male socialisation, then where on earth is the contraction???

And, of course, detransitioning people all tell variations of the same story. What else is there??

Strewth. This is getting old.

SophoclesTheFox · 13/05/2019 21:22

Cracking post, grabthar.

It’s not feminisms first time at the rodeo of (superficially) aligning with the Christian Right. We’ve been here before with porn and prostitution in the eighties and nineties. I was ok with strategic alliances then, and I’m ok with them now. Do I get my share of the loot now? Cause I’ve had nothing to date. Does Big T*RF have as much money to chuck about as Big Pharma?

SophoclesTheFox · 13/05/2019 21:27

Also, while the alt-right is terrifying, I am no bigger fan of the ctrl-left. I don’t like either flavour of authoritarianism as neither of them are friends of women.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2019 21:28

Agree, Sophocles.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 13/05/2019 21:38

I agree too. The right are trying to erase women’s rights, the left are just trying to erase women.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2019 21:48

In short, I personally think it's entirely possible that transgenderism has a biological basis. Other psychological conditions also do. What I don't believe is that means that they actually are women (or men).

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 13/05/2019 22:08

It's classic "left see women as public property, right see women as private property".

I suspect that a "victory" on this issue will come at the expense of us being shunted back much closer to the "private property" end of things and we'll have to start again fighting our way back to the middle. Maybe one day both sides will stop seeing us as property altogether.

Also, "ctrl-left" as an opposite to "alt-right" is excellent.

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