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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jezebel.com lumps GC feminists in with the alt-right

234 replies

CaptSkippy · 11/05/2019 17:53

Yes, I know that I should not waste my time with a site like Jezebel. I saw this post a few days ago and skipped over it as total nonsense. Today I saw it trending on their front page:

jezebel.com/the-unholy-alliance-of-trans-exclusionary-radical-femin-1834120309

This must be deliberate right?

OP posts:
CaptSkippy · 12/05/2019 21:17

I used to believe that the trans issued proved that gender was a construct. That it really didn't matter what body you were born in and you could do what your appearance and behavoir whatever you wanted.

I do also feel that the transmovement has changed. This male-female brain thing wasn't always part of the equation. Transgenders used to be called transsexuals too.

But once the insistent on "innate gender" became a thing and I saw the same rhetoric from them as I know was used to deny women the vote, I was out. I was firmly GC at that point.

OP posts:
Erythronium · 12/05/2019 22:08

Trans people have always said that they were women trapped in men's bodies or vice versa. That's nothing new.

FermatsTheorem · 12/05/2019 22:31

True, Erythronium, but older transwomen I know and have chatted to about this always seemed very much of the opinion that this was a metaphor - the best they could do in explaining the very complex feelings of not fitting in their sexed body. They didn't seem to demand that it was taken literally, with a huge slew of cod science about clown fish and lady brains and barbie jelly babies.

Justhadathought · 12/05/2019 23:08

Imagine not being able to see a vulnerable group as people and having that form a core of your ideology. Thanks for putting the differences between us and them into perspective

Exactly! To trans activists women don''t even exist - except as a 'feeling' in a man's head, which in itself is totally against Queer Theory - which is absolutely opposed to essentialism of any sort -and that includes gender essentialism: the idea that a gender identity might exist as some kind of fixed ideal form - outside of material reality.

Justhadathought · 12/05/2019 23:10

Trans people have always said that they were women trapped in men's bodies or vice versa. That's nothing new

Yes! That's what Havelock ellis said in 1913 about gay men. And that lesbians were men trapped in women's bodies.

Justhadathought · 12/05/2019 23:14

Ereshkigal, dear, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. It's the far right I was referring to. I was drawing a specific distinction between us and them and I mistakenly thought that would be obvious since we're not bigots. I'll try to be clearer for you in future

Creating 'enemies' as an essential part of a world view is not really that progressive. Reminds me of the 'transgression' side of Queer theory - which absolutely must have 'straight', 'conventiona'l society as its foil.

GammonNosher · 12/05/2019 23:21

Hi justhadathought. You might have a point there. Maybe there really is zero difference between good and bad things. I hadn't really thought about that.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 12/05/2019 23:28

Trans people have always said that they were women trapped in men's bodies or vice versa. That's nothing new.

I think the new bit is the insistence that they're actually women, in women's bodies, that other people keep referring to as male bodies because they're essentialist colonial racist bigots (or something). It used to be "I hate my penis because it's a male organ and I want to be a woman". Now it's "I love my penis because it's a female organ and I am a woman". Quite the shift!

The stupid thing is that if they hadn't switched it up people probably wouldn't have started questioning the original narrative. I was pretty happy with the "born in the wrong body" line and didn't think much about it until all the bat shittery started. Then I went back to the beginning and thought "wtf does that actually even mean?" Now I can't believe that I didn't question it sooner.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 12/05/2019 23:33

It's actually pretty sad because we were all rubbing along together just fine with a decent honour system operating and plenty of trust. Now I have no idea how this is going to end, all the trust is gone, and I suspect that the backlash will take out a great chunk of everyone's rights, and the damage done to the credibility of both feminism and the LGB/T movement will set us all back decades.

Justhadathought · 12/05/2019 23:34

Hi justhadathought. You might have a point there. Maybe there really is zero difference between good and bad things. I hadn't really thought about that

Sounds confusing! If you could explain your difficulty in very simple terms, it might help. As an ex teacher - I realise that to make yourself clear you have to be able to explain something - as if to a young child - or to a complete novice .If one is not able to do that - it might well suggest that one doesn't really know, or understand, what one is talking about.

Goosefoot · 12/05/2019 23:45

I find it a bit weird that people associate stuff like women can't wear pants with conservatism. I think political conservatives would think it was weird, and even religious conservatives (who may or may not be politically conservative) would not believe that. It would really be some of the weirder sects. It's like suggesting that liberals all believe in free love communes where kids run around naked and no one knows who their parents are.
I think its significant that no one, when they make these accusations, stops to ask why it is GC feminists and some conservatives overlap on these things. There are understandable logical reasons for it, and its worth knowing them. It's the kind of mutual understanding that makes political compromise possible. t seems like no one cares about understanding the point of view of those they have differences with though.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 13/05/2019 06:57

Alt right?

Seriously, I thought we were ISIS? Least isn't that what India was chatting on about?

Sad face. We've been downgraded.

This frightens them so much, because they know deep down that really many of us reside in their "safe space" e.g. the left.

Black is white, up is down, left is right, the next one would get me deleted.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 13/05/2019 07:00

I find it a bit weird that people associate stuff like women can't wear pants with conservatism.

I think gender ideology takes us right back to the days when women’s brains weren’t considered strong enough to rule countries, be mathematicians, etc.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 08:50

Maybe the common ground with some of the Christian right ( & most other religions; as well as with most of the rational world, in general) is a recognition that biological sex exists, and that it matters.

The divergence comes occurs when considering what exactly that biological sex means, and how it should be perceived and dealt with in everyday reality. Many on the right ( & religious right) believe that biology is absolute destiny; and that men & women should live according to strict or segregated social roles on account of that biology. Transgression of the rules is not permitted, and/or is punished in some way. Everyone is expected to conform to gendered norms and expectations.

The religious right in the U.S/the West is, slightly, an exception to this - because women can and do hold & perform social roles & functions that would not be permitted in other cultures and societies. However, essentialist ideas around biology and sex do matter - and so motherhood & family, for example, play an exalted role.

Feminism recognises that biological sex is a reality ( different strands of feminism differ in how they approach that, though); although generally it is believed that although biology obviously exists, it does not have to mean absolute destiny, in terms of developing a full range of personal expression: that social roles & expressions should be open to all who feel naturally able to fulfil them or embody them, regardless of biological sex.

It is understood that most socially constructed, & enforced, roles are given lesser value when & if performed by females. That the dominant value system arises from a male centred view of the world, that prioritises men and boys, and rewards them more- especially if they perform expected gender roles satisfactorily. Males, too, though, are punished if they step out of line; especially if they perform anything approaching 'femininity', no matter how 'natural' that feels for them.

My feminism has always ben a blend of individualism alongside biological celebration ( valuing the female biological functions, and some of the social roles that accompany those functions), although in my version women's traditional roles are valued equally to men's.

I recognise that parts of my temperament and nature are quite comfortable with my body and biology, though - and I have never really suffered from dysphoria ( apart from sometimes fancying having a different body shape to the one I'm in).

OldCrone · 13/05/2019 08:54

That's what Havelock ellis said in 1913 about gay men. And that lesbians were men trapped in women's bodies.

So the notion of being trapped in the wrong body is essentially homophobic - since your sexual orientation should be the 'appropriate' one for the body you have.

OldCrone · 13/05/2019 08:59

I think its significant that no one, when they make these accusations, stops to ask why it is GC feminists and some conservatives overlap on these things.

Is it because both groups are using material reality as the baseline? Rather than POMO 'reality is whatever you want it to be' nonsense. (I admit, as a scientist, I don't really understand what postmodernism is all about, but that's how it appears to me).

OldCrone · 13/05/2019 09:05

I think gender ideology takes us right back to the days when women’s brains weren’t considered strong enough to rule countries, be mathematicians, etc.

Exactly. If a 'ladybrain' is supposed to be different in some way, how long before they start trying to prove how inferior women's brains are? Why is anyone surprised that it's feminists who are pushing back against this toxic ideology?

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 09:09

Is it because both groups are using material reality as the baseline? Rather than POMO 'reality is whatever you want it to be' nonsense. (I admit, as a scientist, I don't really understand what postmodernism is all about, but that's how it appears to me)

Have to say I've read many dense and involved texts in my time, but the difference between post-modernism and those texts, is that they were comprehensible if fully engaged. nothing I've ever heard or read from a POMO angle is the least bit clear/reasonable/logical/comprehensible - and seem, instead, to operate as a kind of 'sleight of hand' trick - whereby the observer is so blinded by the fancy language and terminology, they assume themselves too thick to really understand it. That is probably why no TRAs are ever able to articulate anything in a clear, easy to understand way - indeed refusing even to engage in discussion, and how so many clear contradictions are on full display.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 09:13

Exactly. If a 'ladybrain' is supposed to be different in some way, how long before they start trying to prove how inferior women's brains are

Well, yes! That's why feminism was required in the first place.

What we have now is Trans women ( men) trying to explain to actual women how to do femininity properly; and some even suggesting that are not really women in the way they are.

They have made a fetish out of gender.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 09:14

.....suggesting women are not really women in the way that they are........ ( India Willoughby)

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 09:17

Fetish

noun
1.
a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.
"a man with a fetish for surgical masks"
synonyms: fixation, sexual fixation, obsession, compulsion, mania; More
2.
an inanimate object worshipped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.
synonyms: juju, talisman, charm, amulet; More

RoyalCorgi · 13/05/2019 09:28

Not that you’ll care but I do think GC feminists lost a LOT of credibility once Posie etc went to America.

If you really prefer to come to your views on a particular topic by looking at who the various participants are talking to, rather than on the merits of the argument, then you might want to take a look at people on the transactivist side, such as:

Peter Tatchell - thinks it's OK for adults to have sex with children
Jonathan Yaniv - likes asking teenage girls creepy questions about their periods
Adrian Harrop - hounds women and sends them threatening messages on social media
Stephanie Hayden - ditto, with added conviction for wielding a golf club for good measure
Jane Fae - supports liberalisation of extreme, violent pornography advocating harm to women and girls
Jess Bradley - likes posting pictures of her penis on her blog
Paris Lees - conviction for robbery

I mean, if these are the people you want to hang out with, fine. But have you tried engaging your brain and actually thinking about the arguments instead? It's hard work, but ultimately rewarding.

terryleather · 13/05/2019 09:51

I'll add some more Royal...

*Sue Pascoe - master of the hunt and Tory activist
*Tara Hewitt - anti-abortionist and BDSM advocate
*Edward Lord - described Dr Ken Plummer, a paedophile advocate and member of PIE, as "a hero"
*David Challenor - furry and nappy fetishist, convicted child rapist with the trans identity of a little girl
*Aimee Challenor: anti free speech creator of terf blocker and apologist for above
*Gordon Pike - convicted for possessing images of child sexual abuse and advocate for having trans identifying men housed in the female estate in Scotland
*James Rennie: convicted child sex offender who used to work for LGBT Youth Scotland

GammonNosher · 13/05/2019 10:33

Yeah I think there's a lot to be said for the position that postmodernist are cultural Marxists and vice versa. They can't be trusted.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2019 10:41

Yeah I think there's a lot to be said for the position that postmodernist are cultural Marxists and vice versa. They can't be trusted

Again, can't quite understand what you are trying to say - and believe me I've tried. Can you explain what you understand by Cultural Marxism in one or two simple paragraph, please? It might add to the conversation.

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