Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

[EweSurname]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-should-accept-trans-women-in-changing-rooms-mg2b8vnd3

Goosefoot
I understand the argument you say they were trying to make but that wasn't what was happening.
They were using a dog whistle proto-racist argument to try to shut down discussion as they were losing the argument. I have seen it many times before.
The fundamental issue was about males in female spaces because (however lovely most men are) we have separate accommodations for dignity and privacy reasons. They threw in the race stuff to try to induce some sort of brain freeze in their opponents and dodge the essential point.

Sorry, not sure if this has been highlighted in the thread but the journalist who wrote this has responded in the most tone deaf way below this tweet and then doubled down. Apparently women are silly old fools who don't assess that risk if really minimal and they should stop complaining...

Yes, I saw that, and that he ran away when more people engaged.

Neither Gender Radical nor Gender Critical ideologies solve the problem - so how about we try something more like "Gender Rational", "Gender Practical" or "Gender Pragmatic" instead?

The imperfect but best practical solution is surely provision of a "third space", the next best being one space for female women and another for men, transwomen and transmen.

This is NOT strict "sex segregation" - it is BETTER than that because it goes further to ensuring safe spaces for women that also feel safe. Part of the value of a safe space is lost if it not felt to be safe.

AND NO SELF-ID! AND NO SELF-ID! AND NO SELF-ID!

(My preference would be that there is NO "cross-sex" ID at all. Instead, there could be an option to apply to be recognised as a transman or transwoman.)

• Transwomen are transwomen: not women.
• Transmen are transmen: not women.
• Both do cause problems for women in women's spaces.
• Neither need cause problems for men in men's spaces.

Hirsute women, with or without double mastectomies, would have the option of using a "third" space with the best solution and would be no worse off with the next best solution of "women only" spaces and "everyone else" (men, transwomen and transmen). The same applies to "intersex" people with Disorders of Sexual Development who have a "mixed presentation".

@DecomposingComposers keeps raising the issue of transmen in this thread and some of the responses are on a par with that female politician who wurbled on in Parliament about seeing into the souls of transwomen. It is almost if "Gender Critical" flips straight over into "Gender Radical" in arguments that seem to be based on the idea that transmen retain some sort of "magical essence of woman", with "female souls" shining through . . . blah blah mystical utter nonsense blah!

The fact that transmen have had some amount of female socialisation and are physically less likely to be capable of rape are not the only issues.

The lack of empathy in some responses for women who would find it highly distressing to be confronted by a typically "passing" transman is in stark contrast to the "Mother Hen" clucking over "small, vulnerable" transmen. Harrop might be an obnoxious jerk but he displayed more common sense than this attitude when he was pulling his "fake transman" stunt, threatening to access David Lloyd all-female changing rooms.

There is the argument that there are so few transmen that there is no problem if they access women's spaces. This same argument is used by Gender Radicals to reassure us about transwomen accessing women's spaces. (FFS x 10!!!)

Same with the arguments based on whether or not transmen have had "bottom surgery". Who wants to be a Genital Inspector? And, before anyone raises it, this issue is about where transgender people are best accommodated, not "intersex" people with Disorders of Sexual Development.

Arguments for "women only" spaces that exclude both transwomen and transmen include:

1. Some women are traumatised, frightened or distressed by being confronted by what they perceive to be a threatening masculine body, whether it belongs to a man, a transwoman or a transman.

• Whether they have had SRS surgery or not, transmen can look VERY masculine. Far from being ashamed of their bodies they can be keen to show off their ripped muscles. A hirsute woman who has had a double mastectomy might possibly be mistaken for an "early transition stage" or "late de-transition stage" transman but, as stated, this system is not perfect and is no worse than what we have now.

1. If non-passing transwomen are admitted to women's spaces then men will take advantage and will pretend to be trans women in order to access those spaces. The same argument applies to transmen who "pass", and most pass much better as men than transwomen pass as women.

1. Ensuring that women whose religious beliefs require sex-segregation are not excluded from public life. Do we know for sure that every religion and culture regards transmen as women?

An article here about some famous transmen with photos, for the benefit of women who imagine that transmen are all "small and vulnerable" and/or that you can "see into their souls" (and some more transmen in the images attached):
ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html

ps. As per the "Trans Umbrella", non-binary people are "not women" for the purpose of providing women-only spaces

Why do we feel the need to defend our female sex-segregated spaces, services, sports and schemes, protected for us in UK law via the Equality Act 2010?

The question to which we need to demand the answer from men who claim they are women is this:

Why are you forcing yourselves into female sex-segregated spaces, services, sports and schemes against our consent?

@JackyHolyoake
"The question to which we need to demand the answer from men who claim they are women is this:

Why are you forcing yourselves into female sex-segregated spaces, services, sports and schemes against our consent?"

You know already the answer that they and the politicians who support them, male and female, will give: "TRANSWOMEN ARE WOMEN".

And back go around in circles again with them running rings around us.

I think we need to push hard on the "Sex segregation" line but recognise that that is not what we are actually asking for: we are asking for women's spaces not "female spaces", ie. no men, no transwomen and no transmen.

Heaven forbid that we actually get "female only" spaces, ie. including transmen. It won't just be agitators like Harrop pulling his "fake transman" stunts.

Am I really the only one who sees that this would be a problem in real life?? That if our concern is really to stop men sneaking into women's spaces under the pretext that they have a right to be there that this is the only solution?

Making a huge fuss about inclusion of transwomen letting in "men who pretend to be transwomen" and then being happy to have a system that includes people indistinguishable from men makes no sense at all.

Yes - tell men that they need to accommodate transwomen in their spaces. Of course.

They have already been accommodating transmen without knowing it and without risk to either men or transmen - and they need to carry on doing that. And that is not sex segregation.

When we push the "sex segregation" line they will, as usual, come back at us with the thoroughly reasonable question, "What about transmen?"

We have to say that this is not the multicoloured rainbow sex swap shop, not "you take the TW and we will take the TM".

This is not "transphobic". It is just the only practical system that will work to keep men out of women's spaces. We can't ask to see Birth Certificates or GRC certificates - so why the heck would we want to have a system where we invite people who look exactly like men into those spaces?

We want women's spaces.

The men, transwomen, transmen and non-binary, gender-fluid on alternate 'effin Fridays can sort out what they want between themselves.

(Rant over!)

We can't ask to see Birth Certificates or GRC certificates

The GRC has to be kept secret, the Birth Certificate is the document that can be requested. [The purpose of the GRC is to change the Birth Certificate from biological sex to Legal Fiction Sex.]

I got a bit carried away @JackyHolyoake

Anyway, there is still a double standard operating, in this case about the need to "challenge" men.

The fact is that admitting transmen gives men a much easier way to "pass" as female.

Virtually all the problems raised over hundreds of posts on MN about transwomen having the right to share intimate spaces with women apply equally to transmen in terms of providing a route for men, and the impact on women who would be frightened, distressed or traumatised as much by the presence of a transman as a man.

Would you disagree?

brilliant common sense article.