Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

[EweSurname]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-should-accept-trans-women-in-changing-rooms-mg2b8vnd3

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

Sounds idealistic. The day when men stop ogling women, especially semi naked ones, will be the day we no longer have sexed bodies.

Until then, women and girls need and require safe, private spaces.

Within a couple of weeks of opening, the pool had to task staff with permanently supervising the changing room because female customers suffered relentless levels of sexual harassment. It's been a few years now and still going on

What has happened at our local pool - with the mixed changing rooms, is that one particular man has been approaching women with young children and making uncomfortable and inappropriate comments towards the children . Even touching their faces.

I do not really understand the changing room battle

Ok - well then, do you understand the concept of 'Chestertons Fence'?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc. On the other hand, sexually segregated societies (think Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc) have horribly misogynistic cultures

Well, this appears to be the contemporary consensus, however we are now starting to see is that the overly liberal attitudes towards pornography and prostitution ( in the Netherlands), for example, are not better for, or protective of women at all. And rates of femicide and violence towards women do not decrease either.

Do you all really think that post op trans sexuals should be using the changing rooms of their birth sex?

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

I have no idea what the answer is but that just sounds wrong to me.

Off topic rather, but having sons, I favour the explanation that ogling and abuse of power is down to socialisation rather than inherent in males. The alternative is somewhat depressing

Either opinion can only ever be a theory though

Justhadathought has no one punched him in the face for touching their child - I bloody well would and kick him in the balls and generally go ballistic at him for touching a child of mine. When it comes to my kids social niceties don't register with me.

larrygrylls

Do you really not understand the cause and effect here? Men are responsible for the vast majority of crimes of a sexual nature - rape, sexual assault, paedophilia, voyeurism...

Do you think all these crimes would disappear overnight if we had mixed sex changing rooms? Or do you think that the sort of men who commit these crimes would just see an easier opportunity to get what they want?

It’s not really up to men to accept transwomen in the men’s changing rooms. Transwomen have a legal right to be there. They are Male. It is the male changing room. Why are we giving men the impression they have a say over whether other men can use the changing room they’re legally entitled to use?

That's a very good point ILove. However the apparent reason TW want to use female spaces are because they feel unsafe with or have been harassed or intimidated by other men (if only I could imagine what that must be like... ), so there is obviously a problem there that needs men like larrygrylls, who doesn't mind who he changes with, to make it clear they won't tolerate that sort of behaviour towards TW and that TW will be as safe as any other man in male changing rooms.

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

I have no idea what the answer is but that just sounds wrong to me.

Start asking yourself why it feels wrong to you. Articulate it.

Decomposing you don't think a post op male should change with males but what about pre op with females?

A post op male made the choice to have surgery but is still male. Women and girls did not make the choice to have males in our spaces.

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

Yes it’s superficially complicated

But one thing is very simple, they are male so do not belong in women’s single sex spaces

People make decisions that make their lives more complicated every day. It’s not my job to sort it out for them

8Do you all really think that post op trans sexuals should be using the changing rooms of their birth sex?So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?I have no idea what the answer is but that just sounds wrong to me*

It all sounds wrong to me..... and the only solution I can think of is for third spaces.

is because...

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc. On the other hand, sexually segregated societies (think Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc) have horribly misogynistic cultures.

So, the idea that unisex changing rooms will reduce ogling etc is not some far fetched idea, it is kind of in line with what a lot more progressive societies think of as normal.

Two things. Firstly you say probably they have the least leering and ogling but that's your guess rather than an evidenced fact.
If it were true it's likely to have far deeper causes than just unisex changing rooms. Without understanding and replicating those deeper causes it would surely be folly to expect the same behaviours.

Yup. Really progressive.

nltimes.nl/2019/02/08/fewer-crimes-registered-nl-sex-crimes

Justhadathought has no one punched him in the face for touching their child - I bloody well would and kick him in the balls and generally go ballistic at him for touching a child of mine. When it comes to my kids social niceties don't register with me

My daughter reported the incident to the staff, as she felt very uncomfortable, and apparently a number of other people had too. She wasn't sure how to take him...Was he a bit simple? Or just over friendly? She did not want to get someone into trouble for being 'friendly'.

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

I have absolutely no interest personally, in individuals private parts, or indeed whether they are trans. I just don’t want males in my space when I’m undressing.

Someone didn't get the message re ogling to all Swedish men ... remember this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/8qbhy2/swedenhistoricallopenairbathhremoves_sex/

Mmm, eating rye bread and enjoying out door hot tub and then expecting a down turn in general male anti social behaviour towards women would seem to be rather cargo cult-ish

Better to fully understand the causes before compromising women’s safety, privacy and dignity for a theory, no?

All the swimming pools in my area have village type changing rooms with individual cubicles. On a personal level, they suit me because I've usually got my 7 year old son with me and he is too big to take into the ladies but too small to go into the men's alone.

But I do think that this style of changing should be in addition to single sex facilities, not instead of.

Every once in a while a story will make its way to the local papers or the local Facebook page about men approaching teenage girls and there is always an avalanche of comments from outraged people. You'd think they'd be outraged at the voyeurism but usually they are outraged at the females making a fuss.

Post OP TW conundrum.
Cubicles
Third space
But not in with the females.
Most GNC males do not have any sort of surgery. If an organisation has to expend staffing effort to keep unisex changing room safe (as per example given above) then they should use that effort to keep GNC males safe.
If NAMALT as we are told then it is not a problem.
Let's work on men accepting GNC males in their spaces rather than allowing them to palm them off onto females. Or is this all about validation rather than just wanting to pee (or swim)?

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men?

A man who lost his penis and testicles in an accident is still a man, so gets changed with the men. Since people can't change sex, how is the person you mention any different from such a man?

If you think it's important that this person doesn't have to change with the men, then you should be campaigning for a third, mixed sex space. I'd support that, but TRAs wouldn't (which really tells you all you need to know).

Really, really progressive...

www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/45-cent-dutch-women-have-been-assaulted

(relates to assault in general but includes references to sexual assault)

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc.

As I said, that's not my experience as a young girl and woman.
Why don't you tell us, Larry, as a man, how much leering and ogling would you say women should be able to cope with in the name of sexual integration?