Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

[EweSurname]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-should-accept-trans-women-in-changing-rooms-mg2b8vnd3

if women feel comfortable to challenge male people in women's single sex spaces, then the reality is that some females who feel compelled to comply with masculine stereotypes, if they have had surgery and taken hormones so they have male pattern baldness and a beard, are going to get challenged.

again, people are at liberty to make decisions that make their own lives more complicated. I don't have to sort it out for them.

those females need to make their peace with deceiving men in male single sex spaces or campaigning for third spaces, or getting challenged in the ladies and having to explain themselves.

this is between those females and men, it's not for me to sort out.

Larrygryls-
No transman is capable of raping a man though that’s the issue. Maybe some men are less bothered by trans men in their spaces because they are not capable of being a sexual predator towards the biological men there. Women do not have that luxury.

But it's going to be on some women to sort out surely?

What about women who need to change separately for religious purposes? If they see what appears to be a man in the female changing room is it going to help that there might be a chance that they are biologically female?

I've got a radical idea that worked just fine for millennia, although I know that these days it's more or less unsayable. Everyone could just leave their bodies with the sex organs that they had to start with. Men who aggressively assert themselves to be women are exactly the men that women need to avoid, so they could stay in the mens. Men who have deep seated psychological issues that lead them to believe they are actually female could have psychological help to deal with those feelings. They might still want to dress in traditionally women's clothes and that's fine. But they're still men, so again they could stay in the mens, because they're men. And we could change men's behaviour so that young women don't feel traumatised by being young women, and then they wouldn't want surgery either, although they could of course dress as masculine as they wish. And the changing room and toilets could remain segregated.

That's an interesting map. I wonder how much is influenced by what is perceived as counting as sexual violence. I can imagine it might be different in Italy and Sweden, for example.

Men like Larry are full of shit with their "What's the problem with unisex changing?" schtick. They know perfectly well what the problem is. In parallel situations where men are actually at risk of rape - notably prisons - men are absolutely obsessive and terrified about it. Think of the million and one 'jokes' about dropping the soap in a prison shower.

What men like Larry actually mean is:

1. unisex changing rooms are only a problem for women, so I don't care
2. Being sexually available to men is what women is for.

What men like Larry never mean is:
It would be fine for me to be put at risk of rape.

if you look like a man you should be prepared to be challenged when you use women's spaces. if females who have taken hormones and or had surgery choose to use women's spaces, which they are perfectly entitled to do, they need to be prepared to explain why they're there.

• that should say

if females who have taken hormones and or had surgery to look like men

I wonder if women will confront them though? I don't think that I would. Either because I wouldn't want to offend or for fear of being called a bigot I suppose.

I think what would happen is that women will just stay away because that's easier than getting into a confrontation.

isabellerossignol-
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

I think what would happen is that women will just stay away because that's easier than getting into a confrontation.

But what’s happening at the moment is that actual men are using our changing rooms. And that’s worse. So would you go for the third spaces option?

EmpressLesbianInChair

I think the only solution is a 3rd space yes. But I can't see anywhere being very quick to provide them so it will come down to some people removing themselves I suppose.

I've no doubt that a transman who passes, with a beard and tattoos, might make you look twice and provoke an initial feeling of discomfort. But the rationalisation is that you know they are female and therefore do not present a threat

How do you know they are female? Many trans men pass really well.

I've certainly been fooled by pics of transmen (rugby player I think it was).

Men who aggressively assert themselves to be women are exactly the men that women need to avoid.

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered, just like some people aggressively assert their sexual attraction to their own sex?

There are some pretty horrid TRAs but I don't think it's fair to paint every individual with steadfast GD this way. In fact, I was told I was being offensive earlier for stating that many people on here view TW as 'deviant' but I think your post proves my point.

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered

so what?

really, I know it sounds mean, but brace yourself, you're on FWR and we don't all perform female socialisation all the time here.

Men are men. full stop, the end. Unless you can see into people's souls a la Layla Moran, that's really all there is to it. you can't tell the good men from the bad men until one of them does something bad.

what's your solution that renders sex segregation in a small number of very specific circumstances to protect the privacy and dignity of everyone and the safety of women unnecessary?

The public verdict is seemingly still out on self-id. I personally fully understand the risks, yet I'm probably prepared to give it a try as I don't want to assume every TW is a predator. I don't assume every black man is a knife wielding thug so why would I assume the same of TW?

The public are not even aware of the issues around self ID. It is thanks to some of the many women ( & men) here, and elsewhere that they are now beginning to.

Defining what makes a woman is not your gift, as far as I'm concerned - and neither is it your right to impose on women that which they don't feel comfortable or safe with; nor that which they have fought long and hard to achieve.

I say that if what really matters to trans people is their safety, then they should start actively campaigning for third spaces. That, as far as I can see, is the only solution that protects everyone's rights, and assures the safety and dignity of all.

Your continued conflation of issues around race and transgenderism is not not only futile, but transparently revealing.

Although I think many on here would suggest that you can't tell a good man from a bad man, so maybe I should treat every ethnic male I meet as the greater risk they statistically pose to my wellbeing...?

again you refuse to hear and refuse to see that the issue is about dignity and privacy and the right to women's self determination. Trans women are not women.

You don't seem half so interested ( not even at all) in trans men, and the issues around young lesbians & gay men, and children.

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered, just like some people aggressively assert their sexual attraction to their own sex?

There are some pretty horrid TRAs but I don't think it's fair to paint every individual with steadfast GD this way. In fact, I was told I was being offensive earlier for stating that many people on here view TW as 'deviant' but I think your post proves my point.

I wasn't talking about people with gender dysphoria. I addressed those people further down in my post. I don't believe for a second that the aggressive TRAs of which you speak have got gender dysphoria, because if they did genuinely believe themselves to be women then they would be more sympathetic towards actual women.

How does one "aggressively assert their sexual attraction to their own sex"?
By refusing to have lesbian sex with a male? Is this something to do with the cotton ceiling?

Belgian you seem to be trying to make some curious juxtapositions between trans, race and sexuality this evening.

I wonder what you’re getting at?

How do you know they are female? Many trans men pass really well.

Presumably they will be hell bent on using the gents in that case.

Otherwise they need to get used to being challenged.

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered,

They can think what they like!

Strewth. This is ridiculous.