Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

[EweSurname]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-should-accept-trans-women-in-changing-rooms-mg2b8vnd3

Presumably they will be hell bent on using the gents in that case.

Can you not conceive of some trans men who pass really well but not well enough that they pass in the men's? So look male in the female changing rooms but don't pass well enough to go into the mens?

I honestly think that a lot of women would be very uncomfortable with a person that they perceived as male being in the changing rooms. And I never see this being spoken about and I do understand why, because if we say that TM should go into the mens then it follows that TW go into the womens and I understand all the issues around that. I just don't think it is as simple as TM come into the womens. For me, that will feel like, yes for privacy not safety, that it is a man there.

What if I think I'm your lizard overlord for scientific reasons yet to be discovered? Do you bow down to me or think I've gone a bit Icke?

Decomposing that's the third space argument. That's not acceptable to a TRA position.

AlunWynsKnee

Well I know it isn't acceptable but somewhere along the line compromise has to be made doesn't it? I assume that TRAs also don't want TW in the mens or TM in the womens either so they won't be happy with that solution either.

DecomposingComposers Even though the risk to men is not the same, men and boys have the same right to privacy and dignity as we do. If you are female and wish to externalise the sex stereotypes associated with the male sex all the way up to and inxluding artificially augmenting your female body via cross sex hormones or have radical cosmetic surgeries to construct a simulacrum of a male body, that still doesn't make them men.

However females with such severe gender dysphoria that they go down the medical route typically do not wish to expose their bodies to anybody, neither males nor females. If they pass - and many more medically transitioned females pass than males because testosterone is a hell of a drug - they may still not seek to strip naked in front of males because far fewer females who identify as trans have phalloplasty than the other way around.

That's because this operation typically has a lower chance of success and carries greater risk. Females have died as a consequence of this operation, others struggle to live with the botched results.

The prevalence of such females is also much smaller than that of males, about 1 in 34,000 females have such severe gender dysphoria that they go down the medical route and a tiny percentage of them chose to have phalloplasty. (This is for adults. With ROGD and the affirmation model the numbers for juveniles are still unclear).

Female crossdressers for sexual gratification are also extremely rare, heterosexual or bisexual AAPs even rarer. So there are - by some magnitude - far fewer females who may convincingly present as male enough that their presence in a female-only changing room may alarm the other women and girls and even fewer who would get off on using the men's. (Although judging from what females who identify as trans actually say about their attitude towards their bodies, most would use a third space if provided.) And it's not like this is a novel problem - masculine looking or presenting women are frequently in this situation and know how to diffuse it.

So to answer your question, such females, if they don't wish to use a female-only facility so as not to alarm the females using it, will self-exclude from female-only spaces. They do not necessarily then use the men's, at least not until they pass undetected (which in the case of open plan changing rooms is highly unlikely) and look for alternate arrangements.

I’m in Ireland, our gym/swimming pool changing rooms are unisex. We have individual cubicles and family rooms but the showers are unisex

the showers are unisex

This gave me a double-take but then I remembered that it's the same, too, in my local swimming pool, also in Ireland. I was thinking of the Germany-everyone-strip-naked model, but they are just quick showers where everyone keeps their swimsuit on.
I assume that's what you mean?
I've also been to a private pool in a hotel, and there the facilities are single sex. It is also of course much quieter. There was just me and a man with his two kids.

I regularly swim at four different pools (council pools in N Ireland) and all have mixed showers, usually right at the side of the pool. There are very clear signs up saying that swimwear must be worn at all times though.

I’ve never seen any adult or child naked in the unisex showers in my gym. I don’t understand why you’re comparing it to Germany? I’ve never been in a German pool or gym. Is there an issue in Germany?

It may have been in another thread when I reported that in Germany everyone strips completely naked in the single-sex pool showers, and several posters were astonished at that. There are several threads atm about single-sex toilets and changing rooms.
I'm more used to the German variation, that's why I thought that. Everyone naked.

I don’t see an issue with people being naked in single sex showers but the problem would be when someone “identifies” as a man or a woman using the single sex showers.. obviously 😀

To whoever brought up race - the vast majority of black men are not knife wielding thugs so it would be irrational and racist to think this when you see one. 100% of TW are Male born and that is the basis on which they are being objected to in female spaces.
Making this type of comparison to support your argument makes you come across as racist.

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered, just like some people aggressively assert their sexual attraction to their own sex?

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘aggressively’ asserting their sexual attraction. If you mean rape then the problem is their aggression rather than their sexual orientation.

Do you think all homosexuals are aggressive, just like you think all blacks people are?

Are there any other groups you hate while you are on a roll?

Are there any other groups you hate while you are on a roll?

Women, it seems.

Women have a right to privacy from males. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

To whoever brought up race - the vast majority of black men are not knife wielding thugs so it would be irrational and racist to think this when you see one. 100% of TW are Male born and that is the basis on which they are being objected to in female spaces.
Making this type of comparison to support your argument makes you come across as racist.

I understood them to be talking about crime statistics. Men are not mostly criminals any more than black men are mostly criminals, and I don't imagine most TW are criminals either.

When women give the possibility of men committing sex crimes as reason to exclude TW, the counter-argument given is that neither most men nor TW are criminals. An elevated statistical chance is not a good reason to refuse individuals who likely are not criminals, any more than it would be a reason to be wary of black men (or any other group) simply because there is an elevated statistical chance of a crime.

As far as it goes, I think that is logical, we don't say that you can refuse something that people should be allowed to do because some members of that group are criminals in higher than average numbers.
You have to go a little deeper or take a different approach to support the original position. One possibility being that it's really about privacy, not crime, I think that is maybe the real issue for most people. Or that something about the nature of the crime is different, or the level of risk statistically isn't comparable in each instance (if that is the case.)

The real crime argument I think is that its not about the elevated risk of men on average, it is that it creates a situation that is particularly attractive to a certain criminal element so the risk becomes elevated a lot more than just that statistical average. Which isn't really a comparable analogy to looking at crime by race or ethnicity or anything like that.

But I think that is often not explained very clearly, and it doesn't seem to be something that is obvious to people unless it is explained clearly.

As far as it goes, I think that is logical, we don't say that you can refuse something that people should be allowed to do because some members of that group are criminals in higher than average numbers.
You have to go a little deeper or take a different approach to support the original position. One possibility being that it's really about privacy, not crime, I think that is maybe the real issue for most people. Or that something about the nature of the crime is different, or the level of risk statistically isn't comparable in each instance (if that is the case.)

Its about Safeguarding frameworks.
Safeguarding is about the identification & management of risks towards children & vulnerable adults.

In intimate spaces males represent a risk towards females.
Appropriate risk management may be the exclusion of males, having chaperones etc.

It is also about privacy though. I think it's important that women's privacy and dignity is respected.

I think it's important that women's privacy and dignity is respected.

YY
& consent.

There are men - relatives & friends - I feel perfectly safe with.

I still wouldn’t want to be naked in front of them. Because they’re men.

The real crime argument I think is that its not about the elevated risk of men on average, it is that it creates a situation that is particularly attractive to a certain criminal element so the risk becomes elevated a lot more than just that statistical average.

Exactly.

Whilst increasing the number of men into a female space elevates the risk, what this does is blow it out of the ballpark.

Because it means every single predator, paedophile, rapist - now has a way in.

There are men - relatives & friends - I feel perfectly safe with.

I still wouldn’t want to be naked in front of them. Because they’re men.

Exactly this. Boundaries. We all have them. If you don't have any at all you should probably get help because it isn't healthy.

Exactly this. Boundaries. We all have them. If you don't have any at all you should probably get help because it isn't healthy.

Agreed.

And it's doubly unhealthy in those men who insist you don't have boundaries.

Exactly this. Boundaries. We all have them. If you don't have any at all you should probably get help because it isn't healthy.

Yes!!

Sorry, not sure if this has been highlighted in the thread but the journalist who wrote this has responded in the most tone deaf way below this tweet and then doubled down. Apparently women are silly old fools who don't assess that risk if really minimal and they should stop complaining...
twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1125639570383671296?s=20