Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

[EweSurname]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-should-accept-trans-women-in-changing-rooms-mg2b8vnd3

I have absolutely no interest personally, in individuals private parts, or indeed whether they are trans. I just don’t want males in my space when I’m undressing.

Yep. It's really not us who are 'genitally fixated'. I don't know how men behave in their changing rooms, but the norm in open plan women's is a lack of interest in other people's genitals/boobs. Usually women dress discreetly, facing the bench.

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc.

These two societies are very different in their attitude to women. This was quoted on another thread.

"Nowadays, a little boy in Sweden grows up with the fact that buying sex is a crime. A little boy in the Netherlands grows up with the knowledge that women sit in display windows and can be ordered like mass-produced goods."

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533-4.html

Which "progressive" society do you favour, larry? Also, your 'probably' implies you're just making up that assertion.

post op trans sexuals

Why can't men make room for the likes of Kelly Maloney, a post-op transexual? Why would they object to Cailtlyn Jenner, a post op transexual, using a cubicle? If they find it hard to accept transexuals then they aren't being very woke, are they? They are being transphobic.

Transexuals are protected in law from being discriminated against because of their gender reassignment. They are entitled to use the services and facilities designated for their sex. It is their human right.

So if women made their bodies more available for men to look at, they wouldn’t get fetishised?

Because it’s not as though women’s bodies aren’t made available for scrutiny all the time, everywhere, 24/7 online for your viewing pleasure is it?

This this this. I’m not making my body a test case for your theory Larry. I like it as it is, I like having spaces where just other women are. NO.

post op trans sexuals

Are a minority even in their own community, very few have the surgery. Regardless, no operation changes your sex and no operation gives you a penis you didn’t have before. I am totally supportive of a third option.

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

I don't see there is any more of an issue (so none) sharing female single sex space with a female transperson who has had operations than I have sharing with any other female who has had surgeries such as mastectomy, hysterectomy.

I understand that some female transpeople may want private individual changing space.
That option should always be available, many females need this.

Do you all really think that post op trans sexuals should be using the changing rooms of their birth sex?

It’s not their birth sex. It’s just their sex. It doesn’t change with surgery.

Someone didn't get the message re ogling to all Swedish men ... remember this?

Well done, I was going to try to do an advanced search to find the MN thread at the time.

There is no progressive utopian society where women are not subjected to misogyny and harassment.
I can't recall who said it but it has always rung true for me - left wing men see women as public property and right wing men see women as private property.

If all changing rooms became unisex more and more women would shower at home. Eventually only men would use them so unisex wouldn't mean anything any more. Maybe men would ogle less, but it's unlikely, and even if most men didn't there will always be creeps and weirdos, and single sex spaces help keep them at Bay. Unisex spaces is an open invitation.

so there is obviously a problem there that needs men like larrygrylls, who doesn't mind who he changes with, to make it clear they won't tolerate that sort of behaviour towards TW and that TW will be as safe as any other man in male changing rooms.

definitely!

We need men saying to transwomen “you don’t need my permission to be here, it doesn’t matter what I think of you, you are entitled to be here. This is your changing room and I will defend your right to be here.”

I’m thinking of a new sticker campaign that empowers transpeople to exercise their right to use their legally entitled changing room.

• I understand that some female transpeople may want private individual changing space. That option should always be available, many females need this.*

There are males who also may need private space - facilities should always include some. 'Inclusive' should mean thinking about the needs of people with specific issues, not lumping everyone in together ... that just leads to self-exclusion.
**
Erishkigal - my google search found the MN thread too:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3276075-Sweden-historical-open-air-bath-removes-sex-barriers-for-queer-day-women-driven-home-by-ogling-men

I’m thinking of a new sticker campaign that empowers transpeople to exercise their right to use their legally entitled changing room

This is a great idea

Stickers reminding males who feel compelled to comply with feminine stereotypes that they are as entitled to use male spaces as any other male

As women have always said, transwomen are not womens problem to accommodate. They are still men.

Yes that’s it bernard. Transpeople being made to move out of their bathrooms is wrong. I can see how that has lead to many thinking “ok, I can use the other one since that is how I identify” when actually they should be thinking “hang on! No, I’m allowed to be here. I’m not leaving”

There are males who also may need private space - facilities should always include some. 'Inclusive' should mean thinking about the needs of people with specific issues, not lumping everyone in together ... that just leads to self-exclusion.

Of course.

My OH works in Norway fairly regularly. A number of women in his office have told him they now change and shower at home after using the local gym, due to its policy of allowing men into the previously single sex women's changing room.
It only takes one creepy man to make a lot of women change their behaviour.
(In case anyone is thinking 'why would random female colleagues strike up such a conversation with a male colleague' it is because the employees have recently had 'inclusiveness' training so it has been a bit of a common topic of conversation)
And he uses an 'adult human female' logo pen

from the link above about making single sex facilities mixed in Sweden, heresyandwitchcraft wrote last year:

"Jeanette Larsson, a former policewoman, LGBTQ activist and lecturer in diversity issues, wrote a letter to the editor in Sydsvenskan this Friday June 8 [2018]. Google Translated version (briefly corrected by me):

The basic idea is wrong. Women are discriminated by men taking over their space

The first Monday of the month, men can move freely inside the department that is otherwise "ladies", writes Jeanette Larsson.

Malmö Sauna Club announced on April 30th that "Now history is written in Ribersborg's cold bath!"

Yes, it certainly is.

The first Monday of each month nowadays, men can move freely inside the department that is otherwise "ladies". It takes place under the slogan "Queer Kallis", which is highlighted by elevated pride flags and a beautiful rug in all the colors of the rainbow at the entrance, as well as a brochure that states "there is zero tolerance to unwelcome looks".

Politicians and LGBTQ activists have certainly thought about and want to satisfy transgender rights and opportunities. I also want that and naively walked into the ladies' area on Monday.

"Outside the sauna there are two benches where older ladies, the ones we call the "regulars", usually sit and talk about life. Some of them have two breasts, others one, some don't have breasts. There is no doubt that here they can relax and feel safe.

But on Monday, three men, legs widely apart, took up the entire bench while looking out over the bridges. An elderly woman with a walking aid looked scared and chose to go elsewhere. On the bridges women were scarce, but plenty of men walked back and forth.

Two young women beside me embarrassedly put on their bikinis. The woman on my other side looked around her, worried. She told me that she had been stalked by her ex for several years and now worried that he would come here, despite having a ban on visiting. It was quite possible just this day.

Then I could not be quiet anymore. I swept the towel around me and went to the staring men and asked why they chose to be on the women's side today? Are they queer? I also told them that I heard many women on the bridges express their discomfort and inform them of what I read in the brochure.

The young women in bikini and several others joined me and agreed. The men on the bench spread their legs even winder and became noticeably annoyed. "But we're allowed to be here today!" they say in a chorus." (continues)

www.sydsvenskan.se/2018-06-08/grundtanken-ar-fel-kvinnor-diskrimineras-genom-att-man-tar-over-deras-omrade

Some people don’t care about nudity in front of anyone; lots of people do however, for a variety of reasons.

We took dc swimming when in France last year. Very open mixed changing area with a shortage of cubicles. DSS aged 13 was confronted with more than one half-naked woman. He was utterly mortified, didn’t know where to look and ended up refusing to change at all. So he didn’t go swimming and the rest of us cut our visit short. I had found a cubicle fortunately because oddly enough I didn’t want to change into my swimming costume in front of my adolescent stepson, for both our sakes.

Some people don’t care about nudity in front of anyone; lots of people do however, for a variety of reasons.

I'm personally not too bothered by it - but I conform to the norms of discreet changing because I know other people are bothered. I may not particularly feel the need for single sex facilities myself nowadays but that's completely irrelevant - I understand why many girls and women do need them.

Some very good comments under the article and pleasingly, some men who read the Times (unlike some on here) get the issue and reckon that 3rd spaces are the solution.

I was once a member of a female only gym. It was brilliant.

Germany has a swimming pool culture in which there's a large open space with cubicles for both sexes, with doors at both ends; you go in one end, change, and when you come out the other end you are in the "clean" area. You take your clothes and put them in a locker, usually with a wrist key or electronic button.
Then everyone separates, men and women. All German women strip completely naked in the showers, young and old, and they shower thoroughly and wash their hair, then put their swimsuits back on and either go to the pool or back to the unisex changing cabins. I think it's a pretty good system.
If a man came into the ladies' shower they would chase him out. German woman are very direct. They wouldn't stand for it.

I've archived it just in case

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Its Ramadan, I really doubt many of the local men where I live would welcome mixed sex toilets or changing rooms.