Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

[EweSurname]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-should-accept-trans-women-in-changing-rooms-mg2b8vnd3

@larrygrylls

Glad you are happy to have TW in male spaces - they are after all male. Please talk to other males about this and get them on board. TW should feel safe with other males and society needs to make that happen. I am sure other women would agree that TM are safe and welcome in womens spaces.

If we could then put Gender under article 9 as a belief that you could choose to have or not and scrap the GRA that would be even better. (The original need for the GRA has been negated due to same sex marriages now being legal anyway.).

Bollockstobrexit
I've been swimming in France where the showers are a bit like a corridor between pool and changing area and the changing area is all cubicles(decent size for using with kids) and it's all unisex. The layout of the showers meant no one took of their swimwear and it was very busy as part of a walkway so felt safe. Elsewhere in Europe I have only been to single sex changing areas.

Good to see "male genitalia" there.

Hoping that The Times readers do a bit of googling of JY.

My personal unisex experience was Austria but, upon googling it, it seems the standards vary by region and country.

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc.

I still also think that individual (private) gyms should have whatever rules they like and people could vote with their feet. Gyms are a crowded market place and there is room to accommodate everyone in a space where they are comfortable (as long as they can pay). However, gym membership is a luxury that the majority of the population is excluded from (financially) and not a human right.

Public facilities clearly need a consistent policy which I would agree should be male bodied in male changing rooms.

Brilliant article, I especially love this quote from MM

The idea that a man wearing a dress would be harassed by other men is awful, but feminists have been fighting hard to make sure society is accepting of people who step outside gender roles.

Firmly makes the point that this is a problem with men, not feminists

I've lived in 7 European countries (and one Europe adjacent, and a few more not in Europe) and sex segregated changing has been by far the norm.

The only places I've been where communal is the norm is centerparcs, (which still does have sex segregated areas if you want them) a couple of local pools with changing villages, and I'm straining here, but I think I've been to a beach pool where there were just little sectioned off showers, so not really changing facilities at all, but they were mixed.

Everywhere else has been sex segregated. More so than the UK in fact.

I'll note that my experience is generally southern/central Europe, not Scandinavia, so perhaps that makes the difference (although given how much time people spent in swimming costumes in some of the places, I'm actually surprised at how they still preferred the sex segregated changing)

"I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc"

Did you read The Times article recently where it found that the majority of sexual attacks at Britain's public swimming pools and sports centres occur in unisex changing rooms?

"The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms".

Independent link as I don't have a share token for The Times.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

So if women made their bodies more available for men to look at, they wouldn’t get fetishised?

Because it’s not as though women’s bodies aren’t made available for scrutiny all the time, everywhere, 24/7 online for your viewing pleasure is it?

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

Do you think that men's attitudes to women and women's bodies are caused by single sex changing rooms? Or have I misunderstood?

Leering, cat calling and sexual bullying is about power, not attraction

I used to change/shower with the male team members of my mixed Volleyball team but they were all people I knew and was comfortable with and it was pre-mobile phones.

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc.

I'm afraid that's wishful thinking, Larry. I spent the best part of my childhood and teenage years in a country where attitudes to nudity are more open, and I encountered ogling and lewd comments as soon I developed breasts.
You say you don't 'get' the changing rooms battle. Get what exactly? Some women don't want to change in front of males, and they shouldn't have to explain their reasons. A simple 'no' should suffice.

Surely it is for the TW to accept they are male and use the facilities suitable for their biological sex?
Re facilities in Europe. Yes all mixed in France, changing rooms with short doors and mixed showers and the unlabelled toilets so we are confronted by men using the urinals. Not great for us let alone children and teenage girls. However at our local pool in Spain, several different labels clearly marking men and boys then men with children, then women with children and then women and girls. Slightly confusing as for extra clarity they also use the words masculino and feminino. However locked doors between the male and female facilities.

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

LOL to the thought that allowing males better access to females of all ages in a state of undress will lead to less ogling.

But on a more serious note, my local swimming pool was rebuilt. The old one had single-sex changing rooms with showers and toilets. The new one has a mixed-sex changing room with shared showers and separate, single-sex toilets.

Within a couple of weeks of opening, the pool had to task staff with permanently supervising the changing room because female customers suffered relentless levels of sexual harassment. It's been a few years now and still going on.

I used to go swimming three times a week in our old swimming pool and started off the same in the new one. But the men hanging about the changing room, observing all the women, the open nature of the cubicles, the unpleasant experience of standing next to a bloke washing himself with his hands inside his swimming trunks - all of this makes for an uncomfortable atmosphere that I don't wish to experience. So I've stopped going. It's now a space where many females keep their heads down and try to disappear into a cubicle as fast as they can while the males strut around like they own the place.

In my experience, mixed-sex spaces inevitably become dominated by males. That's not a benign state of affairs which benefits females. So I profoundly disagree with your wish to see all facilities made mixed-sex. I want a space where my privacy, dignity and, yes, safety are maintained when I am in a state of undress. Which means a space free from all males above a certain age.

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

Are you one of these people that also think if women just stopped say no to sex, then rape wouldn't be an issue?

Leering, cat calling and sexual bullying is about power, not attraction

Exactly. It's also rather creepy to suggest the solution is to provide more women for men to dominate, thereby satisfying the appetite? Instead of, you know, addressing male violence and sexual dominance.

In terms of Megan Murphy, her idea in this is excellent.

Let's put the problem into the male arena. Let's have male pundits on chat shows discussing why they would (or wouldn't) accept a transwomen. Let's hear them say it out loud. One way, or the other. Because any commentary at all will be incredibly revealing.

Let's hear tv hosts like Piers Morgan or journalists like Owen Jones, on record, on telly, actually discuss it.

At the moment, it's only women discussing it. And they get dismissed on the basis that they're not men. Whatever they say.

I'd love a panel of men to be asked the question that she is posing. Not because I could anticipate the answer, but because the very discussion would be dynamite.

If they disagree, why? If they agree, why is it not happening?

The issue of validation would rise instantly. And why, or whether, men in general think that women should validate other men at their own expense.

Let's force men to account for themselves.

Totally agree. This is about men not treating other males less favourably because of them transitioning. All the effort going into policing women and forcing them to accept males in their spaces should go on protecting GNC males in Male spaces.

A family member designs and supplies services for public buildings. He updated a university a few years ago. He was told to install all unisex toilets.
He created 3 separate rooms in each space - Male, Female and Unisex. Even back then he could see that the idea of all unisex loos and changing rooms was ridiculous and harmful.
This approach would work well, but for the fact that a certain group of males only want to access the female facilities. I don't understand why so many people (mostly men and politicians,and a few women) fail to grasp this very simple and obvious point.
I heard on the news recently that the first "transgender refuge" has been opened in London. I do hope it will be appreciated and used.

All the effort going into policing women and forcing them to accept males in their spaces should go on protecting GNC males in Male spaces

Yes, Meghan is changing the conversation, bringing it round to where it should be. To men getting over their homophobia and fear of non conformity and being accepting of feminine men. This is a male issue-men should be dealing with it

I cannot wait to see MM at the woman’s place meeting this month. I think she’s terrific

@datun Exactly that.

It is funny how many people on this thread take the view that men are programmed to ogle, almost as if they inherited it with their Y chromosome.

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc. On the other hand, sexually segregated societies (think Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc) have horribly misogynistic cultures.

So, the idea that unisex changing rooms will reduce ogling etc is not some far fetched idea, it is kind of in line with what a lot more progressive societies think of as normal.

It’s not really up to men to accept transwomen in the men’s changing rooms. Transwomen have a legal right to be there. They are Male. It is the male changing room. Why are we giving men the impression they have a say over whether other men can use the changing room they’re legally entitled to use?

It is funny how many people on this thread take the view that men are programmed to ogle

Now who said that?

It’s not really up to men to accept transwomen in the men’s changing rooms. Transwomen have a legal right to be there. They are Male. It is the male changing room. Why are we giving men the impression they have a say over whether other men can use the changing room they’re legally entitled to use?

YY
Male transpeople should be empowered and encouraged to use the facilities provided for their sex safely and without harrassment.

It is funny how many people on this thread take the view that men are programmed to ogle, almost as if they inherited it with their Y chromosome.

The #MeToo campaign ran to 11,000,000 posts in under 24 hours.

Twenty percent of females will be raped or sexually assaulted at some point during their lives.

I don't think it's 'funny'.