Is a Transman a mother or father?

[Mamello]

What do people make of this in today's Times? To me this person did not 'Father' their child - they gave birth to their baby from their ova and so are the mother.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mother-of-all-legal-rows-for-trans-man-and-his-baby-5rzpw9mr7

Sorry - don't have a share token.

A birth cert is not recording fact. It's the mothers opinion

Why on why does this story affect you so much?

Seriously. We're still hearing this TRA gaslighting gambit, which is basically #nodebate in a different coat? Which is largely about hoping women stop talking about actual issues and just engage with you in endless derailment?

Why does it affect me so much? It fundamentally fucks with my society, my language, my ability to define myself in law, my respect for the law, my ability to participate in a democracy based on fact instead of selfish, self interested and narcissistic fiction, it fucks with the rights of children, it fucks with the foundations of safeguarding, it is utterly fundamental stuff that affects every man, woman and child in this country.

Don't be so damn silly.

If you want to fight for an ideology that removes all the above from every citizen that's your right but have the guts to own it, and to argue honestly for it instead of gaslighting, dishonest distraction and derailment.

Cross post, Fekko . You're right. When this kind of purposeful derailment is deployed it suggests the conversation being had on the thread is an important one that needs to continue.

Well said, Michelleoftheresistance.

Do you feel the need to look at your mums vagina and imagine yourself emerging from it?

Bless.

Anyway, back to the discussion.

This is only tangentially related, but I thought it was quite interesting:

www.dw.com/en/german-woman-to-adopt-own-child-after-using-surrogate-mother/a-48445783

In the case in this thread it is much clearer though as both the ova and the uterus belonged to the same woman.

The more I think about this story the angrier it makes me - the child is just an irrelevance to this individual, it is all about them and their fantasy.

I remember Posie was absolutely vilified for saying that transmen should not be parents (or something along those lines), and I'm horrified that I am beginning to understand where she comes from.

This individual seems to have made a child purely to make a point, and is going to court to allow them to lie to their child for their entire life. What sort of parent does that?

Michelleoftheresistance

I’m loving all the fucks you give. 👏

Mothers can record anyone as the father. Doesn't mean it's biologically accurate. Drop your hate honestly. Only if she is married to him or if he attends to register the birth. Otherwise no, mothers cannot record just anyone as the father.

@diffetentname so the father isn't the 'father' same difference no?

@lord what you mean is you will ignore the people that opinions are in opposition to yours

Has it ever occurred to you that the person in question desperately hoped for a child has one because they biologically could but feels like a man and would prefer to be known as a 'father' because they think theyre a man. Most of us will know the longing for a child. He/she did it in the only way they knew how. Who exactly are they harming? God knows biological mothers and fathers harm their children. Leave this trans man alone. He loves his child. I'm sure he'll tell him or her the full details one day. Lay off your bloody hate. please.

Lay off your bloody hate. please.

It's not about 'hate', it's about the context that our laws exist under. Why don't you want us discussing the law?

Who exactly are they harming?

Are you seriously asking who it harms if the law is changed so that the classification of mother no longer has any meaning?

Seriously?

It has legal implications beyond this case. I can understand why you can’t see that Limp given you can’t grasp the legalities of registering a birth.

Has it ever occurred

Yeah, most of us who are parents have taught our kids they aren't the centre of the universe, or more important than the interests of everyone else. However sad or angry that makes them.

I'm an idiot. One with a degree in a science hmmm. OK you really believe they check sperm samples when registering? OK so take your example. A man married to the mother isn't the biological father. So how's that different? Was it 'idiot' you labelled me?

Lots of people have a degree these days. In reality it means very little, as standards drop and people are no longer capable of critical thinking. These days we have degree level students unable to string a sentence together in a coherent, or grammatically, correct way; and we have students 'no-platforming' people whose views they don't like - even without any investigation into those views.

A man does not have to be the biological father to register as the father - but he does have to attend, and sign.

Eh? So parents who have legally adopted their child are just carers?

I think formally they are regarded as legal guardians? Informally, and in intimate and social contexts, they are the parents.

Perhaps the child won't raise these questions. Perhaps they'll be loved and happy unlike countless other children with a 'dad' recorded on their birth cert

It is clear that you do not have a child yourself. Children do, and continue to, raise questions about their parents; their origins - in age appropriate ways, of course. But they do.

but feels like a man and would prefer to be known as a 'father' Yet did something that only women are capable of within DAYS of being declared a male. And would have had to lie to the clinic about who they were in order to receive IVF in the first place.

Uh huh, yeah, righto.

Why on why does this story affect you so much? (like every other trans talking point) easy target? New identities for child murderers? That bother you?

This bothers people because it so damn important, and profound; and because most of us are mothers and we understand & care about children. Children are not possessions.

Do you feel the need to look at your mums vagina and imagine yourself emerging from it?

Honestly, you do sound naive. I suspect that most of us have imagined our own births, and how it was for our mother. The act of giving birth is one of those things that unites women; and area of our common humanity and womanhood.

I'm more bothered about people like venebles and Thompson getting new identities and living amongst us like nothings happened after torturing and murdering a 2 year old boy.

Who can quite easily identify as female and change their identity. And become 'mothers' themselves.

This, of course, is not about individuals.

The Burger killers becoming fathers and asking to be called mothers would be thrown out by a court. Because it's ludicrous.

Add trans into the mix and suddenly all bets are off.

And if this ruling goes in favour of this twit, that's exactly what those two boys could do.

As could any autogynephile. Suddenly being legally called a mother would be fantastic for them. Imagine the horrific leverage they would have over the trans widows.

So yes, this affects everybody. Of course it bloody does. Being able to step into a sci-fi world of nonsense, and have it legally endorsed will have never-ending, female damaging implications.

And yes, this particular incident, which is setting a precedent, affects every woman and child in the country. It's not about this woman personally. It's about what she is trying to get enshrined in law.

Furthermore, it really wouldn't surprise me if the Overton window wasn't being deliberately pushed here. And the judge coming up with the alternative of gestational carrier. Writing woman out completely, but without going as far as saying men can give birth.

A birth cert is not recording fact. It's the mothers opinion

The level of debate here is ludicrous. You say you have a degree?

The birth certificate records the date, the time ( in some countries), the place, and the sex of the child. It also records the name of the mother, and in most/many instances the/a father. Longer versions record the occupations of the parents.

Children who are legally adopted have an adoption certificate - this is identical to the short form birth certificate that children who live with their bio parents have - ie it doesn't mention that they are adopted.

Their full birth certificate still exists however but adopted children can decide who to tell about that.

The original birth certificate needs to tell the truth about a child's biological origins. It's their certificate, not their parents'.