Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Is a Transman a mother or father?

252 replies

Mamello · 27/04/2019 14:32

What do people make of this in today's Times? To me this person did not 'Father' their child - they gave birth to their baby from their ova and so are the mother.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mother-of-all-legal-rows-for-trans-man-and-his-baby-5rzpw9mr7

Sorry - don't have a share token.

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 27/04/2019 16:21

”Ms Barnsley agreed that the system needed updating. She said: “There’s already confusion in the law. We need a whole rethink about what is a birth certificate — what is it for and what is it doing?”

Or maybe the government should throw out the GRA and stop people from pretending it’s possible to change sex. The legal fiction this creates is causing all kinds of problems already and now they propose making it easier.

ApplejackCriesOnTheInside · 27/04/2019 16:29

Hard to see how going for donor insemination 10 days after getting a GRC squares with the required declaration that you intend to continue living in your true gender until your death.

FeministCat · 27/04/2019 16:47

She is a mother.

I find it very peculiar someone who claims to be a man went for donor insemination less than two weeks after getting their GRC.

It would be nice if this was a long con to point out absurdity of the GRC but sadly I think this is what we are supposed to accept as reality now: men can get pregnant and be declared fathers. No thanks.

Michelleoftheresistance · 27/04/2019 16:51

Same issue that comes up over and over again.

There are and have to be limits to a 'trans identity' where it clashes with reality. Particularly other people's reality. This is selfish and self centred and shows an inability on the part of the parent to place the child's needs above their own.

Your right to swing your self invention around ends at the nose of your child.

happydappy2 · 27/04/2019 16:57

Could this individual be a vulnerable adult who is being played like a puppet?

I also don't understand how they got a GRC then were treated by an IVF clinic.....are no medical checks undertaken on women before starting IVF? (Appreciate they might not have been taking T but seems most transmen do.) I can't help thinking there is more to this.....

LangCleg · 27/04/2019 16:59

They fuck you up, your Mum and Dad

Another generation of children will grow up with identity issues if we're not careful.

BuzzPeakWankBobbly · 27/04/2019 16:59

Let's look at what TT has to say about WHY, shall we?

-------
TT believes "...the state had already agreed that he was a man and issued a certificate to prove it, TT believes he should be recorded as the father"

TT "...claims that the state is breaching the terms of his gender recognition, which says he should be treated as male “for all purposes."

TT says "...it denies them “access to parenthood in their acquired gender and undermining their trans identity”

TT says "...it’s unfair and “illogical” to make him explain to his child why he is a father in real life but mother on the birth certificate."
-------

Not seeing an awful lot about the actual child in all of TT's self-absorbed ramblings. It's almost as if it is ALL ABOUT TT. Who'da thunk it?

sackrifice · 27/04/2019 17:00

And this is why the GRA should be repealed.

moonrises · 27/04/2019 17:01

There is a poor child stuck in the middle of this. What an absolutely selfish person, do what you want with yourself, but don't make your child deal with this shit.

BuzzPeakWankBobbly · 27/04/2019 17:04

I will also point out:

Definition of mother in English:
mother
NOUN
1A woman in relation to her child or children.

So let's look up WOMAN:
Definition of woman in English:
woman
NOUN
1An adult human female.

-----
And for completeness:
Definition of father in English:
father
NOUN
1A man in relation to his child or children.

Definition of man in English:
man
NOUN
1An adult human male.

en.oxforddictionaries.com/

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 27/04/2019 17:05

I wonder how many men actually think ‘i’d really like to be pregnant and give birth’?

Anyway - they are the child’s mother - butbif they want to be called ‘dad’ ‘daddy’ or ‘grand poohba’ then that’s their affair.

What about the child? No mother? They will know early on (as there is always someone who will spill the beans). Will there be a ‘father’ (ie the sperm part of the baby making) listed anywhere?

It all just boggles the mind at the mentality of some people. It’s a child not a social experiment.

MissBPotter · 27/04/2019 17:09

How pathetic, if you have abandoned your gender as a woman then don’t deliberately have a baby!!! Poor child being the only one to have a mother (I hope this doesn’t get allowed).

All of the legal arguments are totally illogical to any person with normal common sense! Definitely doesn’t pass the ‘man on the clapham omnibus’ test!

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/04/2019 17:13

I wonder how many men actually think ‘i’d really like to be pregnant and give birth’?

My DF would have been thrilled. He delivered loads, which he loved, but that's not the same.

He still gets old patients greeting him at the supermarket. Their babies are parents themselves now. He once delivered three generations of the same family.

TheGrey1houndSpeaks · 27/04/2019 17:15

Does this person not comprehend that if they’d been “treated as male for all purposes” no clinic would have agreed to artificially inseminate them in the first place? Males, as we understand the term, can’t get pregnant.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 27/04/2019 17:28

The mother is openly planning to mislead her child and effectively claim the child doesn't have a mother? To save her own feelings?

Michelleoftheresistance · 27/04/2019 17:38

If you said to social services, or any adoptive parents groups, or single mothers by choice, or gay parents, that you planned to let your unusually conceived or adopted child grow up with a lie about its origins then drop a brick of truth on it later in life, they'd tell you why this is not considered ok and share the many case studies on why. The child's best interests come over the child being used to meet the emotional needs of the parent.

There is going to come a point where there will need to be a rebellion on the part of the general public that if some data can be falsified to preferred 'alternative facts' rather than reality for some of the population then no one else has a responsibility to fill out paperwork truthfully, correctly or even at all. Why bother when it has become a work of fiction and without purpose?

JellySlice · 27/04/2019 17:43

The mother is openly planning to mislead her child and effectively claim the child doesn't have a mother??

I suspect the mother actually believes the nonsense. No intent to mislead anyone - the mother is the one who has been misled.

pallisers · 27/04/2019 17:44

If the person was treated as a man for all purposes, there would have been no artificial insemination - sperm banks don't inseminate men.

And that child will know as well as the next person what sex his parent is despite being told to say Daddy. As will his friends. Saying you are something doesn't make everyone else believe it.

andyoldlabour · 27/04/2019 17:45

Selfish, narcissistic individual. It is always about them, no thoughts for whoever else is involved. Ten days from GRC to fertility clinic, I would suggest that is not the action of a person "trapped in the wrong body".

happydappy2 · 27/04/2019 17:50

Without wishing to sound callous, I do wonder if this poor individual is of low intelligence or has other mental health issues and has been groomed by the trans cult....who is funding their legal case?

JellySlice · 27/04/2019 17:51

"trapped in the wrong body"

Trans ideology does not require any dysphoria or dysmorphia. A person is whatever gender they say they are. Penises can be female and vulvas male if the trans believer says they are.

According to trans ideology getting a GRA to legally become a 'man', and then doing the most female thing possible by using your biologically female body to gestate and give birth to a baby, is perfectly reasonable.

JackyHolyoake · 27/04/2019 18:04

See the GRA 2004: section 12: Parenthood

Regardless of a GRC the parent cannot falsify information on any child's birth certificate:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/12

Datun · 27/04/2019 18:13

JackyHolyoake

Well that's fairly unequivocal, isn't it? What's the point of them going to court?

And any judge worth their salt would easily envisage a situation where a man in a couple is the mum and the woman is the dad. Just because.

And if it's a piece of piss, people will be doing it, and variations thereof - just because.

Hopefully the law will serve this judge, even if their common sense doesn't.

Melroses · 27/04/2019 18:23

Sorry, didn't mean the article - I was thinking of headlines like "Man gives birth." Funny how you get these headlines (I am sure there were at least 2 "First Man to Give Birth"s) but you never get "First Woman to Pee over the Top of a Wall" (you do get first woman in a front line combat division but that was about a change in the law on who can be in front line combat and not a bodily function)

RubberTreePlant · 27/04/2019 18:29

I wonder if there should be recording of both genetic parents and legal parents.

I think so. On the long form birth certificate. They should start naming the legal parents on the short form certificate so that it can be used for most purposes.

Not all of my children are genetically related to me, and I would support the change because I believe it's better for the children.

You'd need a protocol for anonymous gamete donors, though.