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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cross dress males to be allowed in women only gym sessions in Glasgow

273 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 22/04/2019 08:56

Mentioned before, I know, but quite a punchy headline today
www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

OP posts:
JackyHolyoake · 24/04/2019 15:51

What AGPs, transvestites etc have never grasped adequately is that, as soon as one of them enters a women's space it immediately ceases to be a women's space and becomes a mixed sex space, so they can never ever experience what is a women's space. They never seem to realise that as soon as a male, regardless of how he presents himself, enters a women's space the women modify their behaviour.

It is a pointless quest in which these men engage. They will never ever know the joy of a genuine women's space.

OldCrone · 24/04/2019 16:28

www.glasgowlife.org.uk/news/statement-regarding-equal-access-to-sport-facilities

Statement by Glasgow Life. Clueless.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 24/04/2019 16:33

But wishing for something to be true soooo much it hurts is just all so very... childish. Expecting everyone to play along is just deluded.

CharlieParley · 24/04/2019 16:36

OldCrone Clueless, wrong about the law and judging from the complaint thread also untrue. Statement says policy has been in place since 2015, the Mumsnetter and customer who complained to a Glasgow Life facility yesterday reports the facility manager said they got the policy on Monday.

Ereshkigal · 24/04/2019 17:03

So true, Jacky.

Hearhere · 24/04/2019 17:05

at root this is a battle for territory, men feeling that they have lost the territory that was traditionally theirs and pushing back by invading women's territory

OldCrone · 24/04/2019 17:33

The date thing is really odd, Charlie. I thought it was strange that none of the news articles had linked to the policy, so I looked for it myself and found this.

www.glasgowlife.org.uk/media/3520/sports-transgender-policy.pdf

It says 2015 on it, so I wondered where the new one was that I assumed was the subject of the article - if it had been in place since 2015, why is it only news now?

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2019 17:40

wishing for something to be true soooo much it hurts is just all so very... childish

I think 'crying for the moon' was the Victorian phrase, probably dates back earlier. Largely about spoiled children.

Mental health is about the capacity to cope with reality. This is asking the entire (female) population to enter into a co dependent relationship to mummy every trans person and place their needs and wishes and indulging their personal reality as their priority.

It's insane.

Ereshkigal · 24/04/2019 22:29

Hmmm, Glasgow Council...

this busy little person, retweeted by well known transactivist Rachel McKinnon, appears not to be aware, unlike your good selves, of the Stonewall definition of transgender which very much does include crossdressing:

mobile.twitter.com/TheNotoriousRBF/status/1121036385002168320

And also has not one scrap of empathy for any of the women preyed on by the many crossdressing totally not trans male people in their thread. Now there's a shocker.

CharlieParley · 24/04/2019 23:16

It's the No True Scotsman fallacy in play.

Acceptance without exception is the Stonewall motto. This may have started out with a different meaning, but is now used to argue one does not need to suffer from gender dysphoria to be trans, one does not need to medically transition to be trans, one does not even have to endeavour to present as the other sex to be trans.

Non-GD, non-med, non-op males externalising feminine stereotypes are traditionally known as crossdressers (Eddie Izzard for instance).

They are for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the Non-GD, non-med, non-op males externalising feminine stereotypes who also identify as trans.

The word transgender was according to some sources coined to include the latter under the original trans umbrella which originally only encompassed transsexuals who are defined as suffering such severe GD that they seek to medically transition and to have genital surgery.

However without talking to the triple-non-type of male, it is actually impossible to ascertain whether they are mere crossdressers or transgender.

So, what to do? Easy to define the difference one would think were it not for the habit of crossdressers to assume a feminine persona, complete with name change and identifying as a woman while they crossdress.

Still, not a problem one would think, let's make the definition dependent on consistently identifying as trans, right? Eh, no. Not anymore. Gender fluid is valid. Pippa Bunce is valid. Non-binary male identifying as trans is valid (as in a male who claims to be non-binary AND to identify as a woman at the same time, ie a non-binary binary person).

So what is one to do when one wants the transgender crossdresser under the trans umbrella but cannot exclude the cos-playing crossdresser without also excluding equally valid gender fluid trans people?

Solution: include the crossdresser under the trans umbrella. Solves all these problems.

Had a discussion about this with someone involved in the trans community for decades. Was throwing absolute hissy fits at me saying crossdressers were now included under the trans umbrella. Reasons much as that Twitter user - complete outrage that people who aren't really trans should a) be claiming membership of a marginalised group (transsexuals whose GD is so serious they do transition medically) and b) have their unacceptable boundary violations all the way up to crimes against females reflect badly on the old-fashioned type of transsexuals.

After posting a number of definitions, including the Stonewall ones, that person actually acknowledged that yes, trans activists have claimed crossdressers as trans, demanding acceptance of the position that as there is no right way to be trans, there's no real trans and there is no such thing as not trans enough.

Maybe we all have been educated too well by trans activists while this has passed that Tweeter by. But what they are completely missing in that long long thread is that they are proving our point: predators will make use of anything that allows them easier access to their victims. They will abuse self-id.

So either all of those male predators are accepted as trans as per the trans umbrella and evidence that identifying as trans does not render a male harmless to women OR they are accepted as predators using the trans umbrella to their own advantage. Either way, they're proving our point.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2019 23:54

After posting a number of definitions, including the Stonewall ones, that person actually acknowledged that yes, trans activists have claimed crossdressers as trans, demanding acceptance of the position that as there is no right way to be trans, there's no real trans and there is no such thing as not trans enough.

Transactivism started within groups of bothe transsexuals & transvestities.
Many of those transactivists who have lobbied so successfully for the policies under discussion now are transsexuals.

Important thread re history of the evolution of trans rights activism:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2019 08:07

Great post, Charlie.

CharlieParley · 25/04/2019 08:47

Thank you Rowantrees, that's an important thread. One of the reasons why my own position is now far more uncompromising. That and the transwidows thread.

Glasgowlifeemployee · 25/04/2019 09:43

you all sound so uneducated and small minded right now. There not allowing just anyone to use there changing rooms. There’s male and female changing rooms. You can use the changing room of the gender you identify as. With in these changing rooms there are cubicles where people can get changed in private. More often than not anyone who is going though procedures are not comfortable with there body so aren’t going to be flaunting it about.

The Equality Act 2010 says that … To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.

“Boycott them hit them where it hurt” by all means woman can come in with shorts on why not everyone is equal. You need to try put yourself in transgenders position they've been born in the wrong body and the gender they identify as they feel they can’t get changed in that changing room because of small narrow minded people like some of the people in these comments. Please try learn up or educated yourself more you might learn a little.

Michelleoftheresistance · 25/04/2019 09:49

you all sound so uneducated and small minded right now

Yes, your bigotry is showing there. Most women here have educated themselves very thoroughly, they just have different views and needs and difficulties to the ones you perceive. And their issue is that instead of listening, or trying to understand, woke wankers just patronise and belittle them from a position of superiority.

Frankly that just makes me angrier and more determined. The irony of you saying 'please try to educate yourself'...… goodness, have you any idea how arrogant you sound? Why don't you try listening. And actually being inclusive?

And no, you really don't understand the Equality Act. It's being deliberately misquoted everywhere by those trying to force women to accept males in their spaces with all the associated issues, and to shut up about what this will do to many of them.

MockerstheFeManist · 25/04/2019 09:50

Male and Female is Sex, linguistically and legally.

Gender is Masculine and Feminine.

Datun · 25/04/2019 09:50

Please try learn up or educated yourself more you might learn a little.

The irony is excruciating.

Glasgowlifeemployee do you realise that you are speaking to gay people, transsexual people, endocrinologists, scientists, doctors and lawyers, on here?

May I ask where you have acquired your training? Could it be, and this is just a wild guess, from a political lobbying group?

In your opinion, how can you tell a paedophile, who wishes to gaze unrestricted, upon the children in the female changing room and a transwoman?

tempytemp · 25/04/2019 09:54

Hi Glasgow life employee!

You are saying we can't object to a transgender person being in the women's changing room, because they are protected even if they have not had any medical treatment.

Given the above, what would happen if a woman objects to a man being in the women's changing room?

Is the only difference between those two scenarios that the transgender person announces that they identify as a woman and the man who I assume you would direct towards the men's room agrees he's a man?

Can you not see any problems with that?!

Popchyk · 25/04/2019 09:54

"More often than not anyone who is going though procedures are not comfortable with there body so aren’t going to be flaunting it about".

What procedures? You just stated that they don't have to go through any medical procedures.

In what way are cross-dressers in the "wrong body" if they choose to retain this "wrong body" their whole life?

GCAcademic · 25/04/2019 09:55

@Glasgowlifeemployee

Best to learn the difference between “their” and “there” before telling people that they sound uneducated.

TheInebriati · 25/04/2019 09:58

@Glasgowlifeemployee

You have misquoted The Equality Act. To use the facilities of the opposite sex, a person has to have a GRC.

fairplayforwomen.com/changing_rooms/

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 25/04/2019 10:04

The absolute ignorance demonstrated by that purported Glasgow Life employee is staggering

Datun · 25/04/2019 10:14

*@Glasgowlifeemployee.

If you are indeed employed by Glasgow Life, don't you think incumbent upon you to perhaps try and answer some of these questions?

Michelleoftheresistance · 25/04/2019 10:17

Or possibly to be careful about representing your organisation as hostile and belittling to women? And happy with the exclusion of women of faith and culture, disabilities, trauma, older women, breaching children's rights to safeguarding, breaching the human rights to freedom of belief.....

It's not a good look really. Company into disrepute and all that.

OldCrone · 25/04/2019 10:21

@Glasgowlifeemployee

You sound as though you don't know much about this issue.

The Equality Act 2010 says that … To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.

Let me explain what this means. It means that a person who is undergoing 'gender reassignment' cannot be discriminated against because of this, compared to other people of the same sex. So a man who is in the process of changing his 'gender' from male to female, cannot legally be disadvantaged compared to any other man. There is nothing in the Equality Act that says that such a man should be treated the same as a woman. There is nothing that says that self-identifying as undergoing gender reassignment changes your legal sex.

You seem very uneducated about this issue and the relevant laws. This forum is populated by well-educated and well-informed women. As someone new to these discussions, you might find this thread useful:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me