Another day, another friend insisting that THIS video will change minds and hearts

[emerencealwayshopeful]

I watched it. I was doing washing up as well, so it wasn't focussed attention, but I don't recommend others force themselves through it. The production values are nice though, if you appreciate such things.

I'm just feeling lost again, turning on social media after a couple of days away and finding this shared a few times over with words explaining that nobody could be 'swayed by so-called gender-critical arguments' after seeing this all the way though.

How do intelligent women not understand that none of this has anything to do with denying the existence of people who are clearly here and all of it has to do with the fact that this ideology is a threat to women and girls?

This, the Ogre's piece denouncing JY (And the other articles about that vile human) and I need to avoid social media - except that I also have a social life that is barely real so need to go there sometimes to prove to myself I still exist.

On the drag queen point, Contrapoints has just announced that they will have a booth at Ru Paul’s drag convention. So I’m not sure that Contrapoints would object to being called a drag queen. I personally thought a lot of the phrases that Contra used in the video gave them away as a drag queen- they call women “fish” and say they are “A grade tuna”, which is straight out of drag race.

There does seem to be significant overlap culturally between drag and trans communities. I try to be careful of conflating the two but sometimes it’s hard to tell and the trans community themselves seem to embrace much of the drag subculture and references, as Contrapoints does.

Not entirely sure how we are supposed to know how to distinguish between those who are theatrically costumed as women temporarily for comic / entertainment effect and those who are theatrically costumed as women 4 life and are therefore women just like standard cunty type women and have never been anything other than female even though they were ‘assigned male at birth’ and retain male sexual characteristics....

I guess a TRA would say that it’s all based on self ID and whatever the person says they identify as from one day to the next?

Not entirely sure how we are supposed to know how to distinguish between those who are theatrically costumed as women temporarily for comic / entertainment effect and those who are theatrically costumed as women 4 life

This is never explained. I asked another poster earlier how a man could 'live as a woman' and what this entails, other than wearing stereotypical female clothing, but they didn't reply (they never do). So I still don't know how you tell a man who is 'living as a woman' from a man who is just cross dressing for a laugh or as a fetish, or to gain access to women's spaces because he's a sexual predator.

And how do you live as a woman if you're a man?

I didn't read it as drag, I read it as panto, with the T**F in the role of wicked witch.

It's very nicely produced bullshit which seems to have sucked a few people in.

If it wasn't for the production values it would have been immediately obvious to everybody that this person has represented their feminist opponent as a witch and permitted her to deliver a select few feminist argument as a single line and then allowed her no comeback to their long, and at times waffly, 'refutations'.

If this person wants to argue against 'gender critical' points, why not have a straightforward debate with an actual feminist?

I asked another poster earlier how a man could 'live as a woman' and what this entails, other than wearing stereotypical female clothing, but they didn't reply (they never do).

Looking after a vomiting toddler actually, and feeling like my contributions to this thread are a bit of a shout into the void, but I will answer this one question (then no more; been a tough day!).

I said outwardly present as a woman ie they adopt stereotypical female attributes such as long hair, wear women's clothing, take hormones and in some cases have surgery. I say very carefully that they were born male and now present outwardly as a woman because I don't believe that you can change sex (in common with most posters). I have no problem referring to such a person as they wished to be referred, and to me this person passes as female I.e. I would not have given their sex much thought had they not been openly trans. That's what I meant when I said up thread that you don't know much of my views because most of them you would probably agree with anyway.

On the drag queen point, Contrapoints has just announced that they will have a booth at Ru Paul’s drag convention. So I’m not sure that Contrapoints would object to being called a drag queen. I personally thought a lot of the phrases that Contra used in the video gave them away as a drag queen- they call women “fish” and say they are “A grade tuna”, which is straight out of drag race.

More & more I'm coming to see how transgressive/ gay male culture is what all of this about. Sheila Jeffreys spoke brilliantly and informedly of this in 'Unpacking Queer Politics'. The trans umbrella now covers every sort of sexual orientation or 'transgressive' practice. That's why so many gay men are firmly, and unquestioningly, behind it.
Throwing women under the bus.

The only difference I can between my life as a woman and what it would be as a man is that I wear a bra and pee sitting down. Otherwise no difference whatsoever.

The only difference I can between my life as a woman and what it would be as a man is that I wear a bra and pee sitting down. Otherwise no difference whatsoever.

Do you look like man, or would you pass as one, I wonder? If not, then I firmly suspect that a fair amount of what has happened to you in your life is on account of you being female, and that this has shaped your life, your attitudes, your parameters, and your opportunities.

Maybe you don't have children, but I'm sure you've experienced puberty and menstruation too?

To the best of my knowledge there has only been one proper debate so far between a TRA and a feminist, which was - Meghan Murphy and Julie Rei Goldstein in Calgary last month.

Highlights include the male participant forcefully telling women that we don't have right to feel safe, and a crowd of blue haired children trying to insist that cameras are turned off for the Q&A because they don't feel safe.

Also nobody died. People disagreed and lived to tell the tale. Nobody ceased to exist.

#NoDebate is dead. Anybody having fake arguments with strawladies instead of engaging honestly with people who have different interests is a bullshit merchant.

I agree with your post InionEile

There seems to be a massive overlap between drag and trans. Which wouldn't matter to me except I'm supposed to know the difference, and be fine with one in women's spaces but not the other.

Thanks for coming back to answer my question, JustBecause.

I said outwardly present as a woman ie they adopt stereotypical female attributes such as long hair, wear women's clothing, take hormones and in some cases have surgery.

So you're saying how someone 'lives as a woman' is all about presentation?

The problem for me, is that this is a non answer. I grew up in the 70s, a time when men often had longer hair than women, so I don't see long hair as a particularly female trait. In fact, even now, the person who has the longest hair amongst the people I know is a man. And he is most definitely a man - a lifelong biker who probably hasn't had his hair cut since the 70s.

Women's clothing. What exactly is this? I don't think I wear women's clothing (apart from my underwear). The t-shirts, jeans, shirts and sweaters that I wear most of the time are indistinguishable from my husband's, and some of them are technically men's clothing, having been bought from the men's department. Does that make me a cross-dresser or 'trans'? So another non-answer.

take hormones and in some cases have surgery
That's not 'living as a woman', that's being a transwoman, or a transgender person or transsexual.

It seems I'm no closer to getting an answer to how a man 'lives as a woman'.

I'm supposed to know the difference, and be fine with one in women's spaces but not the other.

A lot of people would argue that you should be fine with both in women's spaces. The inference being that because gay men fancy men and not women, you should be tickety boo with sharing your space with them. Your female biology that you only share with other women and no men is irrelevant because women's anything is irrelevant. The fact that gay men still have male socialisation, a male gaze and are often misogynist, judgemental and nasty about women's biology is irrelevant. Its all about men and who men fancy that you should be concerned with. Men define everything and should be centred in every issue.

I firmly suspect that a fair amount of what has happened to you in your life is on account of you being female, and that this has shaped your life, your attitudes, your parameters, and your opportunities.

But that just shows that a man can't live as a woman, because living as a woman simply means living as a human being who happens to be female.

If this person wants to argue against 'gender critical' points, why not have a straightforward debate with an actual feminist?

Because putting your own words in the straw witch’s mouth is much less bother, most likely.

You also don't get to dress up in weird and wonderful costumes, if you have to include someone else like being "gender neutral" in a white chemise and tonnes of blusher.

Sheila Jeffreys spoke brilliantly and informedly of this in 'Unpacking Queer Politics'. The trans umbrella now covers every sort of sexual orientation or 'transgressive' practice.

YY. Thoroughly recommend that book to get a handle on queer theory.

Ooh thanks for the link Pencils, I'd missed that debate.

I'll be interested to compare with how JRG speaks to Stephen Crowder, here

Debate: Steven Crowder v transactivist Julie Rei Goldstein
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3341871-debate-steven-crowder-v-transactivist-julie-rei-goldstein

Looking after a vomiting toddler actually...

There you go. That is one experience that is definitely 'living as a woman'. Taking care of a pukey kid is something that is largely done by boring old cunty types of women. Not the FABULOUS, BRAVE and STUNNING variety.

And yes, I am aware that men also take care of vomiting toddlers but less typically as the default parent or single parent. Women still do the vast majority of caregiving work - unpaid or paid - in the world.

And I don't see high profile trans women who are most strident in their 'TWAW NO DEBATE!!!!' beliefs lining up to take on that aspect of 'living as a woman'.

But that just shows that a man can't live as a woman, because living as a woman simply means living as a human being who happens to be female.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. There's not some innate magical essence that exists in me apart from my biology. I'm just a human adult female, with a unique personality. All women are that. Everything about me that is female, has to do with my biology: menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, menopause. Any "female" personality I have acquired including wariness around strange men and protectiveness of my bodily privacy comes from those experiences.

Those experiences are so exclusively female, and so very different from a male's, that he can't just say "I'm a woman" and think he's hit the spot. A man cannot have them. They have nothing to do with clothes or presentation. They have to do with actual female experience; living in a real female body.

There is no essentially female lifestyle, once biology takes a back seat and is reduced to bra and pee.

You also don't get to dress up in weird and wonderful costumes

What was "weird and wonderful" about what she was wearing? Not that there is anything wrong with weird and wonderful, but it wasn't.

The witchy outfit, Lass?

Are you going to tell us you often dress like that, and not just for weddings?

Nothing wrong with weird and wonderful at all.

Whenever I went out last summer with the FPFW leaflets I always made sure I was wearing horns and had a weird green glow behind me.

The 'evil panto witch' look worked a treat when engaging with ordinary women on the street.

The evil panto witch looked like fun - very Queen of the Night.