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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Ama - transwoman

522 replies

Indigo9 · 18/04/2019 01:53

I've heard about Mumsnet for years in regards to views on transgender women. But until today I had never visited the site. I've spent hours reading posts related to transwomen and the gender ID bill. I do think there is a little bit of a disconnect with regards to who and what we are. So I've decided to setup this profile with a mind to answering questions you may have about being transgender. I'm not in to hate or insults, so you won't see me participate in any mud slinging, name calling or anything else. I will, however, answer any legitimate questions from my own perspective. I do not speak for the whole trans community and would not try to, but will happily share what I know.

OP posts:
TalkingintheDark · 18/04/2019 11:46

Would I be correct in deducing that you believe your feelings to be more important than the feelings of people who were born female? As evidenced by your belief that you should be allowed to intimidate women, but men should not be allowed to intimidate you?

It does sound a lot like male entitlement, doesn’t it IsabellaRossignol?

So strange.

I did like that picture of a seagull on a grey rock upthread, thanks to the person who posted it. My son will like it too, he’s very fond of seagulls, and in our house they’re all commonly known as Stan.

Which leads me to think how interesting it is that whenever talking about a bird/animal/insect of sex unknown, we almost invariably default to male pronouns to refer to it.

I wonder why that would happen in a fundamentally patriarchal, misogynist society where females are and for millennia have been the second sex? And I wonder what effect that has on the developing brains of children of either sex?

You might imagine it would be one of the things that would lead to a world where we all unconsciously accept male primacy as a given, and have to work jolly hard to challenge that unconscious attitude if we want to establish a more just society. Mightn’t you?

HumberElla · 18/04/2019 11:47

Thanks OldCrone, I’ll come back in a little while ...

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 18/04/2019 11:48

I got reported and deleted for saying “what a load of bollocks”.

Mumsnet!!!Shock Really??????

Well, I think you deleting my post is a load of bollocks!!!

Since when could we not say say we think someones opinion is a load of bollocks on this site????

TalkingintheDark · 18/04/2019 11:51

After all, to take the name from billions of oppressed women and claim it as your own, insisting that they find a new name (which you'll certainly steal too) isn't very...nice.

It isn’t, is it, Barracker? In fact, it’s so not nice, that my feelings are very, very hurt by it.

If I were male, I imagine that my hurty feelz would be very, very important. People would make laws to stop my feelz being hurted. People would make it a criminal offence to hurt my feelz and send police officers round to interview anyone who was such a big old meanie.

But seeing as I’m female, I think we can be pretty sure that no one will give a shit, not even a tiny little one.

It’s ALMOST like double standards.

LangCleg · 18/04/2019 11:58

New crossword clue:

The commonly held male belief that women's attention is a given right leading to the desire to dominate conversations they're having without male input:

G _ Y

And another:

The best response to this is?

G / K

2BthatUnnoticed · 18/04/2019 12:00

Oh come on Mumsnet. Someone reported “bollocks” and you deleted it? Redickulous.

NottonightJosepheen · 18/04/2019 12:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NottonightJosepheen · 18/04/2019 12:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 18/04/2019 12:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 18/04/2019 12:08

Since when could we not say say we think someones opinion is a load of bollocks on this site????

Well, JustineMN herself has said it’s OK to say ‘Your post makes you sound like an arse.’

SpamChaudFroid · 18/04/2019 12:13

Is the word "bollocks" deemed transphobic now? How about ovaries?

Barracker · 18/04/2019 12:14

I don't know anyone who has an issue with transsexual women who have undergone surgical transition.

I don't 'have an issue' with them in the sense that I don't see them any differently than any other man who might have lost his genitalia in a horrible accident. I'd be sympathetic, and in no way would I conclude that a man who had lost his penis and testicles is less of a man.
Just as a woman with mastectomy or hysterectomy is in no way less of a woman.
It's rather inhumane to take the view that losing a sex organ makes you less than the rest of your sex.

Of course, as an actual woman, I'm no closer to being in a common category with a man that has no penis, than I am with a man that does.
There's nothing any man can change about his body or his mind that will make me the same category as him.
I respect the integrity and existence of my own sex class too much to pretend otherwise.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 18/04/2019 12:17

Yes, I will not say that I’m ‘OK’ with males who have had surgery accessing women’s single sex spaces

  1. they’re still male
  2. it would amount to endorsing or even encouraging the surgery trans people undergo. It’s often brutal and frankly the side effects on sexual function (particularly for women) are poorly understood. It will result in sterility

I cannot reconcile myself to any course of action that may encourage people to make that choice

TalkingintheDark · 18/04/2019 12:17

Pass me a tissue, will you, SpartacusAutisticus? I need to wipe the tears of mirth from my eyes

😂😂😂

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 18/04/2019 12:18

OP, I don't know if you'll be back, and I don't know if you're posting in good faith or just goading for screenshots, but I'm posting my question anyway for the lurkers and fence sitters.

As an atheist, I've spent time studying religious apologetics and criticising those claims from the perspective of "burden of proof" and "falsifiable claims". Not meaning to patronise you, but I'm going to define these terms:

Burden of proof: The obligation of the person making a positive claim to prove that claim (as opposed to the obligation of the party rejecting that claim to disprove it). Philosophically this is usually the basis for the rejection of supernatural claims. Legally this is the basis of "innocent until proven guilty".

Falsifiable claim: A claim for which there is some observation (or set of observations) we could make that would show us that the claim is false. In order to hold a reasonable belief that a claim is true, we must be able to falsify it. By contrast an unfalsifiable claim might be true or it might be false, but there's no possible observational evidence we could turn to in order to demonstrate that the claim is false.

Taken together these two concepts underpin much of the scientific method. In addition, a crucial feature of the scientific method is the need to understand physical reality in terms which allow us to make consistently accurate predictive models. Without these things, humanities ability to make scientific progress crumbles.

OK, now to my questions.

  1. I make the assertion that a woman is an adult human with a female physical body and any combination of personality traits or appearances . You make the assertion that a woman is an adult human with a combination of female personality traits and appearances, and any physical body. I don't wish to straw-man you, so please correct me if this is not what you believe. We are both making a positive claim and therefore both have a burden of proof.

To meet my burden of proof I:

  • define the term "female physical body" to mean a scientifically consistent and coherent collection of genotypical and phenotypical features, including chromosomes, reproductive organs, and secondary sex characteristics.
  • present evidence that people with a female physical body can have a variety of personality traits and appearances (for example the numerous people on this thread who say they do not conform to sex role stereotypes).
  • My claim is falsifiable. Using my definition of "woman" I can coherently test for and either confirm or reject someones claim to be a woman (i.e by performing a DNA test or using medial imaging to observe their reproductive organs).
  • My claim can be consistently used for the basis of making predictive models (i.e. predicting how someone will react to medication, whether they are at risk of specific conditions like cervical cancer etc, which is necessary for the NHS to know who to send screening invitations to).

In return, please can you:

  • explain how your assertion about what makes someone a woman is falsifiable?
  • meet your burden of proof regarding why your positive claim about "being a woman" should be accepted.
  • give an example of how your claim could form part of a consistent predictive model (i.e is there any medical prediction you could make about women, given your definition?).

For bonus points:

  • please explain why the evidence I've presented for my claim does not meet the required burden of proof.
  • if my claim is both falsifiable and supported by empirical evidence, whilst your claim is unfalsifiable and not supported by empirical evidence, why should your claim be considered a better basis for legislation than mine?

To conclude, in the same way as I reject the idea of a soul since this is a non falsifiable claim that has not yet had it's burden of proof met, I reject your claim of "innate woman essence". This is not the same as claiming it does not exist, in the same way that finding someone "not guilty" is not the same as being convinced that they are innocent. The burden of proof simply has not been met.

OP, I find you not guilty of being a woman. Convince me otherwise.

TalkingintheDark · 18/04/2019 12:19

Can anyone give me a hint about Lang’s first crossword clue there?

I think I’ve got the second... 😂

Datun · 18/04/2019 12:19

Yes, surgery doesn't change your sex. It may indicate your motivation for coming out as trans-, of course.

But men's motivation to say they are transwomen has got nothing to do with women. And I'm sure most people give it no thought, at all. Until saying you are changing your gender, is followed by a demand for rights based on sex.

Humans cannot change sex.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 18/04/2019 12:22

SpartacusAutisticus GrinGrinGrin

TalkingintheDark · 18/04/2019 12:24

ByGrabthars thank you for that lovely sciency stuff. I don’t have a scientific background (can you tell?) but that makes perfect sense to me. Also find OP not guilty of being a woman.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 18/04/2019 12:25

My second question:

With the prospect of self ID looming, we are now proposing that the definition a woman is an adult human with a combination of female personality traits and appearances, and any physical body does not go far enough, and should instead be a woman is an adult human with any combination of personality traits and appearances, and any physical body . Could you please assess this claim using the same methodology outlined above, and explain how this could possibly constitute a coherent definition for practical, social, medical, and legislative purposes?

Thanks for engaging. I would welcome an answer to these questions from anyone, not just the OP.

LangCleg · 18/04/2019 12:26

SpartacusAutisticusAHF is that a Kleenex on top of a grey rock?!

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 18/04/2019 12:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Datun · 18/04/2019 12:30

I'm predicting a further lack of coherent answers to any questions. The assertion that the Facebook post is quite right and we're all bigoted harridans. And the recommendation that we mend our ways, otherwise we will be on the wrong side of history. With possibly a few 'I feel sorry for you's' thrown in for good measure.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 18/04/2019 12:32

I don’t really care what a bunch of blokes on the internet think.

2BthatUnnoticed · 18/04/2019 12:33

Grandiosity?

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