Clarification on Women only spaces

[Magenta82]

Hiya, I've always identified as a feminist, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and before joining had read about trans rights and had got the impression that any challenges were transphobic and bigoted.

I can see now that, as with most things, the issues are far more nuanced than Twitter would lead us to believe. I can see issues with women's rights, self identification, shutting down debate, etc and am starting to understand other points of view.

I guess for me the complications arise when things get personal. I have some trans friends, both MTF and FTM, who have fully transitioned (as adults over 30), had all the surgery, got certificates the whole thing. What would the general consensus be on access to single sex spaces for them?

My friend may not have grown up as a girl/woman, but has made every effort to become one because she has always felt this way, she may not have faced the same challenges as me growing up, but she has faced other challenges and discrimination. I feel like she absolutely belongs in women only spaces and would hate to think that other people see her as a threat.

skybluee, while I totally agree that women need spaces free from men, even those that want to be women, please don’t use that nonsense, insulting word cis. It’s a banned word on Mumsnet, because it’s offensive to GC women. There is no such thing as cis women. The word and descriptor WOMAN, is enough.

Men's. Women's. Rainbow.

Rainbow should be non-questioning, non-judging. No need for gatekeeping as no one would go in there with any malevolent intent.

It is not transphobic to want cis-only spaces

There is no such thing as cis-only space. You are the only person that has ever brought up cis-only spaces.

We are discussing sex segregated spaces.

If you think that becoming 'trans' reduced the sex based risk that females are under when males are in female spaces, then please do explain how announcing you are 'trans' removes the risk that existed before a male announced that he was 'trans'. Show us your workings.

Also no need for the word "natal". Women are women. No further description needed.

@skybluee They are saying they want a safe space. We are saying we want a safe space. So why should theirs be respected and ours not?

Oh, that is easy peasy to answer. Their wish should be respected because they are men and therefore they have more value than us.

FFS! Why are women's opinions still so easy to dismiss by society as a whole? Why do some women think that because they are fine with something (or unable to see the threat related to something) then the rest of us should be fine with it as well?

As long as some women don't respect other women's boundaries, I can't see how we can get society as a whole to respect those boundaries.

Wow, ok, I didn't expect to come back to this many posts! Thanks to everyone who has contributed, I really appreciate the information and opinions. When I get a chance I will go back over everything, read the linked articles, and think about all the points raised. In the mean time these questions jumped out at me and I will try to answer them.

Answer why we have spaces that are segregated by sex in the first place.
For many different reasons, historical, practical, cultural, religious. However it basically comes down to the need to reduce harm posed to and increase the comfort of the people using the space.

Then tell me, what is it that has changed in a 'trans' person that reduces that risk originally identified in males, such that the risks identified originally to warrant the segregation are removed?

They no longer have a penis or male testosterone levels. This makes me comfortable seeing them as women.

A couple of people have asked if I truly see my trans friends as the gender they identify as, and the answer is yes. I have two friends that I would say I know and love about equally, I've spent similar amounts of time with them and have had various deep and meaningful conversations with them. I would share a bedroom or changing space with the one who is MTF but not the one who is FTM.

They no longer have a penis or male testosterone levels. This makes me comfortable seeing them as women.

80% of 'trans women' retain their penises. How would you know theirs had been removed?

What makes you think that male testosterone is reduced? What level of reduction makes you comfortable 'seeing them as women'?

Is this a photo of a woman?

What about the person with a bushy beard who is going into schools telling them that they are a lesbian and are expanding the definition of ‘woman’ (note not ‘man’). They are taking the mickey and probably just go to public loos to ‘educate’ is poor silly wee girls.

If a man lost his penis and testicles in an accident, is he basically now a woman?
Is that what we are? Dickless men?
If he isn't now a woman, ask yourself why. What makes him still a man, what makes him not a woman.

They no longer have a penis or male testosterone levels. This makes me comfortable seeing them as women.

A woman is an adult human female, not a man without a penis.

As Sackrifice says, 80% of tw retain their penis in any case. Even if all women felt fine with 'fully transitioned' ts in single sex spaces (they don't) there's no way of letting in your nice trans friends without also opening the door to every man who says he's a woman, whatever his intentions.

We can't do genital checks at the door and we can't see into people's souls like Layla Moran.

I still can't see what's wrong with a mixed sex third space for everyone uncomfortable using the appropriate single sex space.

Magenta82

Most transwomen don't have any kind of surgery at all. Of the 20% who do, few of them have genital surgery. I believe facial feminisation and breast implants are far more common. And constitutes 'sex reassignment surgery'. SRS does not mean genital surgery.

Of the only study of its kind, all the subjects had gender dysphoria. And all of them displayed male pattern criminality. Of the approx 120 tranwomen in prison, nearly half are there for sex offences.

Furthermore, neither surgery nor medical intervention of any kind is necessary to get a gender recognition certificate.

Your friends sounds as though they have gender dysphoria, and have had to have surgery in order to alleviate the symptoms. It's distressing for them to not be accepted as women. I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't get that.

But, as stated, validating their mental health issue, is not the job of women. In doing so, it opens up a loophole that is being exploited globally.

Women are people, you know. In their own right. Fully fledged humans. As a concept and an entity. Who share the same characteristics, which place them in the same category.

I, for one, am sick to death of women being classified as something that you can become, through some internalised sexist thoughts.

Women are real. With a biological reality. And an oppression based on that biological reality. They're not some bloody club, or collection of superficial tropes.

If you absolutely must make it women's responsibility to sort out men's mental health issues, then advocate for a third space. It's not complicated.

They no longer have a penis or male testosterone levels.

How would you know this without seeing their genitals or analysing a blood sample? Transwomen also have higher testosterone than women - the level can be lowered, but not down to normal female levels.

And they have not changed sex, because people can't change sex.

Again just because you personally feel ok about being with your transitioned friend does not mean that the rest of us are ok with letting unknown men in places enclosed and when we are vulnerable, undressed etc. I can choose to go onto a naturist beach and I am pretty sure what I will encounter, but I do not propose everyone would want to do this , or that I would choose to have the same men in close proximity in my pool changing room, nor would I expect others to do so. You can't change sex, only appearance.

I still can't see what's wrong with a mixed sex third space for everyone uncomfortable using the appropriate single sex space.

Or make the men's mixed sex. That might persuade men that it's their problem, too. Why should women be forced to find a solution for men who want to be women? Since transgenderism has come about because of a patriarchal society, we should let them sort it out.

Womens spaces being used for validation. Thrust forward as debate, even though no ones mentioning trans men using male only 'safe spaces' ... outside of the traditional working men's clubs of the last century feminists world wide have crusaded to end male only spaces under the banner of equality, not so now you're asked to sacrifice for the cause yourselves.

I think the brand of Feminism being spewed here is an excuse for pure spite and vitriol. Nothing stated here is progressive towards equality for all genders and sexuality's, instead there is a very blinkered and also myopic take, burning with self righteousness and fuelled with anecdote, on an issue that should be defined by maturity you are providing antiquated rhetorical arguments.

I, for one, am sick to death of women being classified as something that you can become, through some internalised sexist thoughts.

This, together with the idea that it's the duty of women to prioritize the needs of male transpeople.

Nothing stated here is progressive towards equality for all genders

I think you might be on the wrong board. This is the feminism board. We don't want 'equality for all genders', we want to do away with gender altogether, because it oppresses women.

HTH

Language. A great tool to communicate clearly. Not a grab-bag of colourful adjectives to make "You're all mean and stupid women" sound like it's a well constructed argument.

Shabooby

eh? wot?

shaboopy

Women campaign to end male spaces which are a seat of power, not the bloody shed movements, or anything innocuous. Where men gather to perpetuate power, then yes. When men need intimate spaces for biological reasons, why on earth would women want to campaign to end those?

Transmen would be annihilated in the men's space. Hence zero campaigns. No transman is clamouring to enter men's toilets, prisons, changing rooms. And men are not campaigning to keep them out of their sport.

None of this is anecdote.

Men commit 98% of all sexually violent crime and 90% of all violent crime. Facts, not anecdotes.

I think the brand of Feminism being spewed here is an excuse for pure spite and vitriol. Oh, take a damper and grow up. Women's rights aren't spiteful nor vitriolic. If you've got a problem with the equality act, take it up with the government.

I think the brand of Feminism being spewed here is an excuse for pure spite and vitriol. Nothing stated here is progressive towards equality for all genders and sexuality's, instead there is a very blinkered and also myopic take, burning with self righteousness and fuelled with anecdote, on an issue that should be defined by maturity you are providing antiquated rhetorical arguments.

You don't actually know what feminism is do you?

tell me where we talk about the risks posed by women then ?

I think if there was evidence to suggest that transwomen as a whole acted like women then maybe there would be more ready acceptance.

I think this is true. The threats and demands I see on social media just look male to me. I haven’t had this experience with the trans women I know in real life though. So I remain confused about the topic in general, but fairly determined to resist the ‘no debate’ thing. There has to be debate. No one should expect to overturn thousands of years of social expectation without some debate.

Tell me where we talk about the risks posed by women then ?

To whom, Shaboopy? Of what? And where?

Did you not see Datun's comment Men commit 98% of all sexually violent crime and 90% of all violent crime. Facts, not anecdotes.

Because it's these facts that lie behind the need for woman only spaces.

I think the brand of Feminism being spewed here is an excuse for pure spite and vitriol.

It’s always spewed isn’t it? Very particular turn of phrase.

Feminism is about making the world better for women and girls. It’s not supposed to be everything for everyone.

ALL genders? You mean both sexes