Clarification on Women only spaces

[Magenta82]

Hiya, I've always identified as a feminist, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and before joining had read about trans rights and had got the impression that any challenges were transphobic and bigoted.

I can see now that, as with most things, the issues are far more nuanced than Twitter would lead us to believe. I can see issues with women's rights, self identification, shutting down debate, etc and am starting to understand other points of view.

I guess for me the complications arise when things get personal. I have some trans friends, both MTF and FTM, who have fully transitioned (as adults over 30), had all the surgery, got certificates the whole thing. What would the general consensus be on access to single sex spaces for them?

My friend may not have grown up as a girl/woman, but has made every effort to become one because she has always felt this way, she may not have faced the same challenges as me growing up, but she has faced other challenges and discrimination. I feel like she absolutely belongs in women only spaces and would hate to think that other people see her as a threat.

Apparently, the risks posed by women amount to - if we talk about our collective need for safety, dignity and opportunity, it is actually going to kill lots of transpeople.

Tell me where we talk about the risks posed by women then ?

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them".

Are those the risks you're talking about?

tell me where we talk about the risks posed by women then ?

There are 14,000 men in prison for sex offences alone. Do you know how many women are in prison for sex offences? Just over a hundred.

In fact there are only about 5000 women in prison, at all.

Feminism isn't a game. And women's rights aren't some aggressive, bitter demand.

The only reason they are necessary is because of men's behaviour. Awkward for your argument though, I agree.

Its ridiculous to think you can police women only spaces by asking someone who looks male if they have had surgery. How the hell do you expect that to work in a public changing room?

Which is why I used the breastfeeding space as an example. What sort of person would be jealous or resentful of a breastfeeding room? Or try to us it if they weren't breastfeeding?

Because the number of women who kill men is so huge isn’t it?

Maybe the men who feel like they are women need to address male violence and aggression - they can talk about this because they have been brought up as, and conditioned as males. They can’t speak for women though because they have had neither the upbringing as a woman nor the actual female chemistry/biology therefore zero actual understanding. Also a great lack of empathy in a lot of cases.

I can put on a bear costume but it doesn’t make me a bear. I may wander off to pop on the woods but that’s kinky rather than actual bearism and the real bears would most likely eat me. Transbearphobes that they are.

Well exactly. Women questioning men who think they are entitled to bulldoze their way into an identity to which they don't belong, never ends well for women.

Funny that. Almost as though sex isn't an identity.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb6OpRfyLFo

When I was a teenager (80s) I had very short hair and sometimes wore men’s jeans and dms, and a leather jacket. I was called ‘son’ a few times and thought it very funny.

I should’ve really throw a massive man-trum then? Do transwomen do this - we, not that I’ve ever heard of.

This makes me thing that the males who do this are rather dramatic types who think less of women, more of themselves and are bullies. It’s all about the drama. 🙄

Just the type of people you don’t want in the shower next to you at the gym. I’m not a bit player in your reality-tv soap opera life, thank you very much. Divas.

Shaboopy, you probably think your posts make perfect sense and provide convincing arguments. But I have tried repeatedly to parse some of your sentences and they remain impenetrable - even though language is my business.

Your ideas are mostly incoherent, I'm afraid. Those whose meaning is clear - criticizing the feminism on FWR for not being progressive towards equality for all genders and sexuality's - tell me that you don't understand the basics of feminism. Feminism is a movement for the liberation of women. Feminists understand that gender is one of the tools of patriarchal control and we reject it.

It is a very polarising debate and there is a lot of mud slinging from all sides so I absolutely understand why people might be cautious. I would like to reassure people that I'm not trying to start a fight, I came here to learn.

There really isn't.

On one side you get threats of horrible slow deaths and rape. On the other you get T shirts and posters and women being arrested.

However it basically comes down to the need to reduce harm posed to and increase the comfort of the people using the space.

Exactly. And MTF trans people have the same offending patterns as men, they are a danger as a class. Your friend may be a lovely person but they are still the same class as Ian Huntley.

I'm a teacher, we are advised to never be alone with a child or make physical contact, that's not because I personally would harm a child it is to protect children from harm and teachers from false accusations.

However it basically comes down to the need to reduce harm posed to and increase the comfort of the people using the space.

How is harm going to be reduced by allowing males into female spaces?

Women whose comfort is reduced by TW using their spaces, what then?

The privacy, safety and dignity of women is paramount, women should not have to justify or explain why they want and need it.

You forgot - women don’t count. Now stop being such a silly girl and go and make me some muffins and a cup of tea.

Ah yes, how ridiculous of me Lord must be that wretched 'lady' brain, now where's my apron.

Don’t ask me, I’m just a girl tee hee hee

(In reality I’m just about the take off the side panel from the bath and replace some piping but shhhh don’t tell the boys).

Your secret is safe with me Lord and I still can't find that apron, damn failed at the first hurdle.

I just tuck a tea towel into my jean belt loops. Failing that I have a heavy duty one for when I do welding.

Oh god. I’ve just realised. I must be a man because I like welding. Bugger. Better tell DH then.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD How do think your husband is going to react when he realises he’s actually been gay all these years?

He will pay likely roll his eyes and say ‘oh really?’. He wasn’t overly excited about my man Friday stance.

Can a man be a feminist? I’m very confused now.

OP, I’m overweight. On a good day, I’ll look at myself in the mirror and think, ‘I look slim today.’ This doesn’t mean I’m allowed to call a GP a liar if they read out my weight on the scales, or expect a shop-assistant not to raise her eyebrows when I ask her to bring a size 6. I cannot expect the outside world to concur with my subjective experience of how I feel inside when it doesn’t match my physical reality.

And that’s without getting into the politics of the systemic inequalities that lay the foundations for male experience. I think it’s only a male-born person that would insist they’re allowed into spaces with vulnerable females - there are certain facets of male-pattern privilege that seem to cross over the transition.

Nothing stated here is progressive towards equality for all genders

No such thing as all genders, no such thing as gender. Nothing there at all.
Two sexes, male and female, currently with male domination over female.
Is that so very hard to understand?

(From the very beginning I've scratched my head at the obvious contradiction in transideology: on the one hand the dogma that someone always was a woman, female brain fixed from birth, on the other hand the very woke dogma that gender is fluid and can change from day to day. Which is it, then?)

You are not allowed to ask that question Lamaha, contradiction is just so passe it's 'no debate' and 'acceptance without exception' all the way.

I think it’s only a male-born person that would insist they’re allowed into spaces with vulnerable females - there are certain facets of male-pattern privilege that seem to cross over the transition.

Not only is it an expression of male privilege but the demand indicates a certain type of male. Decent men have no desire to intrude on woman only spaces. The ones who insist they have a right are precisely the ones we're fearful of.

I don’t give a toss about gender. It’s sex that borthers me. Dress like the sugar plumfairy (or the elephant from the banana splits) for all I care but that doesn’t make you more or less of a woman.

Absolutely prawn - ironically, I hadn’t even questioned the agenda until they became more insistent. It’s actually those transwomen who wouldn’t dream of using a female bathroom who I’m far more inclined to believe have an insight into the female experience.

(From the very beginning I've scratched my head at the obvious contradiction in transideology: on the one hand the dogma that someone always was a woman, female brain fixed from birth, on the other hand the very woke dogma that gender is fluid and can change from day to day. Which is it, then?)

Then there's the other contradiction that adult males can have a lady penis, but children who don't conform to stereotypes need immediate medication, and surgery as soon as they are old enough, in order to be their 'true selves'.