Clarification on Women only spaces

[Magenta82]

Hiya, I've always identified as a feminist, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and before joining had read about trans rights and had got the impression that any challenges were transphobic and bigoted.

I can see now that, as with most things, the issues are far more nuanced than Twitter would lead us to believe. I can see issues with women's rights, self identification, shutting down debate, etc and am starting to understand other points of view.

I guess for me the complications arise when things get personal. I have some trans friends, both MTF and FTM, who have fully transitioned (as adults over 30), had all the surgery, got certificates the whole thing. What would the general consensus be on access to single sex spaces for them?

My friend may not have grown up as a girl/woman, but has made every effort to become one because she has always felt this way, she may not have faced the same challenges as me growing up, but she has faced other challenges and discrimination. I feel like she absolutely belongs in women only spaces and would hate to think that other people see her as a threat.

Surgically reconfiguring a penis into a different shape doesn’t make a male person female.

And these days, ‘gender affirmation surgery’ can mean anything, including keeping your penis - www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/9csb92/i_am_recovering_from_a_nonstandard_vaginoplasty_i/

Its sad that feminist thinking can blindly stop about being equality and instead seek furtherance of females through disparagement, stereo types and anecdotal arguments. The very things feminism stood against in the Patriarchy, are now plain to see in the Matriarchy!

Aw you peaked too early! We're only on page 3

page 4 even

Feminism was never about equality, Feminism is about liberation

How is a unisex space a “no man’s land”?

I have used unisex toilets, as a woman, and so has my husband, as a man. The key is they are totally self enclosed units with sinks, toilets, showers (if applicable), change tables, etc. They are often found in gyms, coffee shops, and the like where I am.

Where is this matriarchy, exactly? I must day, I have yet to see it.

As BettyDuMonde points out, feminism is about liberation.

*I must SAY

This line of argument against sharing with trans is purely ideological, full of axis relating to Maleness and masculine attributes, the very thing those you are rejecting from your spaces are seeking to remove from themselves.

Haha!! Insisting that women have no boundaries, that you can enter their space without their consent and threaten them if they pushback, is the antithesis of rejecting maleness and masculinity!

This line of argument against sharing with trans is purely ideological, full of axis relating to Maleness and masculine attributes, the very thing those you are rejecting from your spaces are seeking to remove from themselves.

Remind again us how you're going to remove that pesky Y chromosome from every cell in your body.

Cor. Someone needs some dressing and croutons with that word salad.

page 4 even

I'm too lazy to turn pages. I'm on page 1 still, with 'show 100 messages'

men are already banned from women only spaces.

Are there no men only spaces, Shaboopy? Why not talk about them as well?

Its sad that feminist thinking can blindly stop about being equality and instead seek furtherance of females through disparagement, stereo types and anecdotal arguments. The very things feminism stood against in the Patriarchy, are now plain to see in the Matriarchy!

Oh look girls, we're doing feminism wrong! Again!

tsk.

This line of argument against sharing with trans is purely ideological, full of axis relating to Maleness and masculine attributes, the very thing those you are rejecting from your spaces are seeking to remove from themselves.

Pull the other one it's got bells on.

I repeat: if you are born male, do not use women's single sex spaces.

As I've been observing so many wise and rational women patiently participate in this conversation, I must admit, my mind has wandered a little. I've just spent a very enjoyable hour googling old videos of Rik from the Young Ones . Pseuds corner also good for a giggle. Now I'm going to go and call my 20 year old nephew. For some reason he has popped into my mind! Probably because he too has passionate views about all sorts of things. I might ask him about feminism and shared spaces to see if he can educate me further.

'pencilsinspace'

"Protection from whom, or what?" Well exactly, what is it you are arguing you need protection from? I have already argued that trans are more likely to be discriminated against and victimised in an already abhorrently violent world.

Well exactly, what is it you are arguing you need protection from? I have already argued that trans are more likely to be discriminated against and victimised in an already abhorrently violent world Oh look! That again...

Women don't need to hypothesise about the danger from transwomen - Karen White is the only evidence we vere need to tell you that you are talking shite!

Sadly there are others who can be named in the same way. The patriarchy is allowing this, changing laws to give predatory sex offenders unfettered access to women!

When you work out how to refute that come back and talk sense... bye

You've argued wrong then. Women are overwhelmingly victims, men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violence. We need women only spaces to protect us from them. It's not complicated

Oh Shaboopy when you argue something on here we don’t blindly accept it. You have to back it up with stats. Many people who have gone before you have tried the trans victim nonsense with the good women of FWR and it doesn’t wash.

I would say try harder but really you need to stop trying. Stop muddying the water. Stop claiming that men who claim that they’re women are anything other than men. Stop telling someone their boundaries are unacceptable to you. Maybe start listening to what we’re saying. Accept that every woman’s boundaries should be respected and stop trying to erode them. Accept that one woman can’t consent on behalf of all others.

I think if there was evidence to suggest that transwomen as a whole acted like women then maybe there would be more ready acceptance.

Instead, we see a huge variety of people claiming transwomen status, from the clearly committed to the clear piss takers . We see no evidence in crime statistics that transwomen behave like women. They commit sex offences agaisnt women at the same rate as men not women. Yes transwomen also experiance violence against them also, funnily enough at the same rate as men ( except where they are engaged in sex work naturally)

This leaves us with the very problem women recognised years ago...the tra push could make things seriously worse for many transwomen

the tra push could make things has made seriously worse for many transwomen

Sorry MIdge, I felt that had to be modified to make the point most clearly... for those determined not to see!

Why would third spaces be a ghetto? Surely all the wokey, liberal, cis accepting women who insist they would be happy sharing with men will be using them? It would just be us old-fashioned, science loving, bigots in the women's?

OP; going back to your original query.

I ask you to do two things.

Answer why we have spaces that are segregated by sex in the first place.

Then tell me, what is it that has changed in a 'trans' person that reduces that risk originally identified in males, such that the risks identified originally to warrant the segregation are removed?