Clarification on Women only spaces

[Magenta82]

Hiya, I've always identified as a feminist, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and before joining had read about trans rights and had got the impression that any challenges were transphobic and bigoted.

I can see now that, as with most things, the issues are far more nuanced than Twitter would lead us to believe. I can see issues with women's rights, self identification, shutting down debate, etc and am starting to understand other points of view.

I guess for me the complications arise when things get personal. I have some trans friends, both MTF and FTM, who have fully transitioned (as adults over 30), had all the surgery, got certificates the whole thing. What would the general consensus be on access to single sex spaces for them?

My friend may not have grown up as a girl/woman, but has made every effort to become one because she has always felt this way, she may not have faced the same challenges as me growing up, but she has faced other challenges and discrimination. I feel like she absolutely belongs in women only spaces and would hate to think that other people see her as a threat.

Do you really see your friend as a woman OP, or do you see them as a man who has done something special and who now needs female support and advocacy which your femaie socialisation has trained you to provide? One of the most obvious ways to spot that trans sujpporters don't really believe trans women are women is that ordinary women almost never get this level of support, care or advocacy as individuals or as a group. Women are generally treated as if we don't matter or don't even exist. What matters to us isn't seen as a high priority for society, hence women's safety being currently compromised by the injunction to allow men into women's spaces. Have you ever advocated for your female friends to the extent you're advocating for this friend - going on an internet talk board to try and persuade other women that we must overcome our own knowledge and boundaries in order to keep your friend happy?

"if someone has gender dysphoria, has gone through steps to surgically change their body to match the gender they see themself as and has taken legal steps to change their identity then there needs to be some kind of acceptance"

None of this makes them a woman though, however much you might admire the process. Growing up as a human female to adulthood (it literally takes years) is how someone becomes a woman. There's no other way of doing it. You've done it yourself haven't you? How can you compare the two?

I would never want to get into the situation where we police people's genitals

I see this getting thrown around a lot by TRAs and their supporters, but isn’t that exactly what they’re doing to women? The fact that we have female genitalia, is one of the things that make us women and that is why people who ‘identify’ as women want into OUR spaces.

dear check junk.

men can't currently vote by proxy to compromise on female only spaces, the subject of this discussion. How then are you proposing to introduce that Men, as different from Trans people, create a compromise here?

This is a conflict whose direct interests are contested solely between genetic females and trans people, why involve traditional "men" in any form?

I have to say the idea of "third unisex spaces" feels wrong to me! How would they be 'gatekept' as safe spaces for trans people?

Who are trans people afraid of and why?

Excellent post Erythronium.

Yep excellent post Erythronium I cant understand WTAF some other posters are trying to say

Afraid of being even further marginalised along neo traditional lines within an unrepentantly violent society that trumpets its liberalism globally. Afraid of hypocrisy, autocracy, relegation, bullying harassment and victimisation.

In sum I'd say that being ruled out by both your birth and identified gender is a pretty unpleasant proposition on this already genocidal planet!

One of the most obvious ways to spot that trans sujpporters don't really believe trans women are women is that ordinary women almost never get this level of support, care or advocacy as individuals or as a group. Women are generally treated as if we don't matter or don't even exist.

I see this often.

One of the most obvious ways to spot that trans sujpporters don't really believe trans women are women is that ordinary women almost never get this level of support, care or advocacy as individuals or as a group.

Nailed it!

Afraid of being even further marginalised along neo traditional lines within an unrepentantly violent society that trumpets its liberalism globally. Afraid of hypocrisy, autocracy, relegation, bullying harassment and victimisation.

In sum I'd say that being ruled out by both your birth and identified gender is a pretty unpleasant proposition on this already genocidal planet!

And this stops you from going for a piss how?

PencilsInSpace

so long as no one stops you from pissing, right?

I used to be one of ...”awww come on, they just want to pee in peace” people. But the more I’ve seen on social media...the spite, the rage,the threats and sheer disgust of women wanting their protected rights.

I’ve also come to understand the utter maddness of the trans ideology, I’m hard line - no males in female spaces. Not in the loos or in sport or another place. When women are equal and respected...then come and talk to me about compromise.

Also compromise is supposed to be a two way street .... what are they adding to the pot ?

It’s reinforced by the Get the L out thread... utterly disgusting homophobia just dismissed and shouted down with the usual bigotry/ transphobia nonsense. No attempt to call out the unacceptable tweets, of which there are pages upon pages of, coercing lesbians to accept TW in their dating pool.

How does your existential angst stop you from pissing in a mixed sex third space, 'Shaboopy'?

This is a conflict whose direct interests are contested solely between genetic females and trans people, why involve traditional "men" in any form?

Why do you think this is a conflict between women and trans people and men should not be involved? Are none of those trans people men?

'OldCrone' because men are already banned from women only spaces.

'pencils in space' it doesn't, but it offers nobody protection, its the nil sum game of this whole argument.

Imo if the motivation to keep transitioned people out of single sex spaces (toilets? REALLY?) Is based on sexuality, as per deriving arousal (inferring molestation or aggression) rather than the ideological point scoring as it seems to have become, this argument needs to take each axis separately. Arguing on sexual arousal its as well to argue that a homosexual should have to piss separately from straight people because of unwanted attention, Ideologically its unfair to accept being trans to the point of letting a person have reassignment surgery only to refuse to let them piss in a stall next to you.

It’s got nothing to do with sexual arousal.

We sex segregate via body type. Female and male.

Ideologically its unfair to accept being trans to the point of letting a person have reassignment surgery only to refuse to let them piss in a stall next to you.

No, it isn't.

'Betty'

In that case aren't you overlooking surgical reassignment?

You can't change sex.

This line of argument against sharing with trans is purely ideological, full of axis relating to Maleness and masculine attributes, the very thing those you are rejecting from your spaces are seeking to remove from themselves.

Its sad that feminist thinking can blindly stop about being equality and instead seek furtherance of females through disparagement, stereo types and anecdotal arguments. The very things feminism stood against in the Patriarchy, are now plain to see in the Matriarchy!

Imo if the motivation to keep transitioned people out of single sex spaces

No, the motivation to keep male transpeople out of female spaces is to maintain sex segregation.

'pencils in space' it doesn't, but it offers nobody protection

Protection from whom, or what?

Betty is right, this has nothing to do with sexual orientation. I am very happy to share space with lesbians, bi women and straight women. Because they are women. We segregate by sex where necessary, not gender or sexual orientation.

Ideologically its unfair to accept being trans to the point of letting a person have reassignment surgery only to refuse to let them piss in a stall next to you.

Gosh, this is a new one. If women didn't want males who have a trans identity sharing female only facilities we shouldn't have 'let' them have major, life-changing surgery.

I never knew women were so powerful

You can't change sex.

True.

Going to a third unisex space is gender 'no persons land' discriminated by both sides

I for one wouldn't advocate a ghetto of the psyche such as you're proposing

Is that you Sally Hines? Have you been hitting the bottle again? How can it be 'no person' s land' if it is a service for everyone?

And the psyche comment just shows women's sex segregated spaces are being used for validation.