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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Are there identifiable causes for being trans?

182 replies

T1meForDebate · 11/04/2019 10:21

Fionne is sharing some heartbreaking testimonies on Twitter from transwomen who were manipulated by their mothers - I do wonder if sometimes women project 'I wish you had been a girl' so strongly that the impressionable child starts to try to please?

Then there's the three year old boy who said he was a girl - only when given time to talk did it come out that his parents had a younger daughter with many special needs including extra time and attention. Little boy can only conclude they love girls more - so he insists he's a girl.

Debbie, the transman who transitioned at 44 (when menopause hit, maybe?) - and 15 years later bitterly regrets it because she's come to terms with the fact that it was triggered by her father's sexual abuse

The whole feeling lowest of the low if you're a lesbian or gay teen - but suddenly fashionably fascinating if you say you're trans

Irresponsible magazine calling a school the coolest in the country because so many children say they're trans - who wouldn't want to join the latest craze and get called cool in print?

Autistic children who find dealing with the world so difficult, suddenly also having to cope with new bits that look, feel, smell and behave differently, including hurting, and attracting wierd unwanted attention, reactions and touching

Kids whose interests, behaviour and dress don't fit the prescribed pink and blue approval lists being ushered through the 'you're clearly trans' door

Adults (including parents) who are so committed to wanting children kept in a pre adolescent form for longer than is natural that they develop, prescribe, promote and lobby for puberty blockers (what's that about?)

Charming, articulate and cute transmen publishing chirpy polished how-to videos on Instagram flourishing binders, mastectomy and phalloplasty scars to community cooing response - what a lovely welcoming sense of belonging endorphins that must trigger

final para removed by MN as it broke guidelines
explanation below.

OP posts:
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ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 11/04/2019 12:47

When I was about 15 a huge chunk of girls in my year suddenly started "coming out" as bisexual. If you weren't bi, you weren't cool. I got caught up in it and convinced myself I was bi for about a year, until I realised that liking the tattoo song "all the things she said" and actually fancying women weren't the same thing. Basically teenagers are the probably the most irrational, inexperienced, arrogant, and easily led people on the planet. A significant proportion of teenage Tumblr users seem to think they're "otherkin" which can mean anything from an animal, to a mythical creature, a fictional character, an actual living different person, or even a piece of fucking fruit. Teenagers have an almost unlimited potential for being both completely ridiculous and yet deadly serious, and that's why we don't let them vote. Now, admittedly I have no idea if those girls from my year still feel that way. All the ones I have on fb are married to men now although that doesn't mean they aren't bi. But I distinctly remember it happening in a flurry which mimics the flurry of trans/NB people "coming out" atm.

R0wantrees · 11/04/2019 12:48

The people claiming small children "know" they're trans chill my heart. I saw another one claiming 'Jacky Green knew they were a girl from the age of 4' on Twitter yesterday and really wished I could sit down with such people and say 'Tell me about what 4-year-olds think, believe and know, please - and how adults can steer little minds to believe all sorts of stuff'.

Recently on Woman's Hour:

The teenage brain: Seven things parents should know about adolescent behaviour
Sarah-Jayne Blakemore is professor of cognitive neuroscience at University College London and the author of Inventing Ourselves: The Secret Life of the Teenage Brain.

  1. The teenage brain undergoes a huge transition
“Contrary to what was believed for many, many decades, the teenage brain in fact undergoes really substantial amounts of development, both in terms of its structure and its function throughout childhood, throughout adolescence and it only stabilizes around the mid-20s.

“Something to bear in mind when you have teenage children, when you work with teenage children, is that they are going through a period of really important transition.

“They are changing a lot, and the thing to remember is that those changes are there for adaptive, evolutionary reasons.

“They need to go through this period of transition in order to become fully independent adults.”

  1. Teenage behaviour is often influenced by friends
“Peers are a really important source of information and influence during the teenage years.

“If you think about the risks we worry about teenagers taking, like smoking or binge-drinking or experimenting with drugs, those are risks that teenagers don’t take when they are on their own normally, but they do when they are with their friends.

“Social influence is at its highest during the teenage years.” (continues)
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/29h0HQPw8L8xJmyNh1Ss7Qb/the-teenage-brain-seven-things-parents-should-know-about-adolescent-behaviour

All of this program was relevent.
Childrens & teenager's brains are developing.
None of this is new knowledge, its as if there is a bubble around transgenderism preventing well established understanding about trauma, abuse, child development, family dynamics etc being considered.
All children are influenced & impacted by external factors known to be significant.
All children may have known internal factors including ASD etc

littlbrowndog · 11/04/2019 12:50

Yeah rowan. Great post

MenuPlant · 11/04/2019 12:51

Loads of girls at my school had eating disorders.

I remember vaguely trying to self harm (no need for anyone to worry/feel sad or anything - it wasn't a very good effort and I only did it a handful of times) after a friend told me she did it.

Teens are v impressionable including harmful behaviours.

That's why there are such strict rules about reporting self harm and suicide etc.

That the entire trans lobby blithely ignores.

MenuPlant · 11/04/2019 12:52

I mean the girls all had eating disorders and this was the "norm".

Certainly behaviours propagate in groups that are close / similar.

This is well known isn't it.

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2019 12:59

I find what Fionne has shared disturbing.

And worrying.

SarahTancredi · 11/04/2019 13:00

That the entire trans lobby blithely ignores

Tras- influenced policies for , girl guides, schools, police, nspcc, employers, gymnastics, and a while host of other organisations. Run by, staffed by, founded by presumably educated adults.

Also Tras- no one can influence anyone to become trans.

Hmm Confused

heresyisthenewblack · 11/04/2019 13:06

Fetishism is a form of paraphilia, but most people who have fetishism do not meet the clinical criteria for a paraphilic disorder, which require that the person's behavior, fantasies, or intense urges result in clinically significant distress or functional impairment. The condition must also have been present for ≥ 6 mo.

There are many fetishes; common fetishes include aprons, shoes, leather or latex items, and women’s underclothing. The fetish may replace typical sexual activity with a partner or may be integrated into sexual activity with a willing partner. Minor fetishistic behavior as an adjunct to consensual sexual behavior is not considered a disorder because distress, disability, and significant dysfunction are absent. More intense, obligatory, and highly compulsive fetishistic arousal patterns and behaviors may cause problems in a relationship or become all-consuming and destructive in a person’s life.

Fetishes may include clothing of the opposite sex (eg, women's undergarments), but if sexual arousal occurs mainly from wearing that clothing (ie, cross-dressing) rather than using it in some other way, the paraphilia is considered transvestism.

Treatment of fetishistic disorder may include psychotherapy, drugs, or both. SSRIs have been used with limited success in some patients who request treatment.

www.msdmanuals.com/en-gb/professional/psychiatric-disorders/sexuality,-gender-dysphoria,-and-paraphilias/fetishistic-disorder

Transvestism is a form of paraphilia, but most cross-dressers do not meet the clinical criteria for a paraphilic disorder; these criteria require that the person's fantasies, intense urges, or behaviors cause distress, impair functioning, or harm others. The condition must also have been present for ≥ 6 mo.

Some scholars believe that transvestic fetishism should be removed from the International Classification of Diseases (ICD) at the next revision even though some men who cross-dress do so compulsively and are distressed and impaired by their behavior.

Cross-dresser is a more common and acceptable term than transvestite. Cross-dressing and transvestic disorder are extremely rare in birth-sex females.

Heterosexual males who dress in women’s clothing typically begin such behavior during late childhood. Up to 3% of men have cross-dressed and been sexually stimulated by it at least once, but far fewer report regular cross-dressing. Cross-dressing is associated, at least initially, with intense sexual arousal. Sexual arousal that is produced by the clothing itself is considered a form of fetishism and may occur with or independent of cross-dressing.

Personality profiles of cross-dressing men are generally similar to age- and race-matched norms.

When their partner is cooperative or willing to participate, cross-dressing men may engage in sexual activity in partial or full feminine attire. When their partner is not cooperative, they may feel anxiety, depression, guilt, and shame because of their desire to cross-dress and may experience sexual dysfunction in their relationship. In response to these feelings, these men often purge their wardrobe of female clothing. This purging may be followed by additional cycles of accumulating female clothes, wigs, and makeup, with more feelings of shame and guilt, followed by purges.

www.msdmanuals.com/en-gb/professional/psychiatric-disorders/sexuality,-gender-dysphoria,-and-paraphilias/transvestic-disorder

heresyisthenewblack · 11/04/2019 13:15

In females and children, I think the picture is probably more complex. I would be looking at what's already been mentioned, especially the parts about social contagion and the need to find a "tribe."

Also I'd ask if there is anything helpful we can learn from these already-described phenomena:
Personality disorders (especially EUPD and NPD)
Dissociation as a trauma response
Munchausen and Munchausen by Proxy

The root of the issue, however, is inappropriate medicalisation of a social problem.

It seems easier for society to swallow transgenderism than plain old gender non-conformity and homosexuality (see Iran "transing the gay away" as the prime example of this - if that doesn't ring alarm bells, I don't know what will). I blame doctors for a lot of this. Why in the hell would a person need to take hormones for the rest of their life and cut out their reproductive organs just because they feel uncomfortable with society's expectations of them?
What should have happened is physicians saying "NO, I am very sorry but it is medically impossible to change sex." Much of the pseudoscientific bunk propaganda so-called evidence being put out by the trans lobby appears to be retroactively trying to justify an initial decision made in a different era by male patients and male doctors. They need to invent an explanation that will fit their narrative.

SomeDyke · 11/04/2019 13:16

"I now identify as a heterosexual male. I feel so much more comfortable compared with before when I was called a lesbian by people."
This leapt out at me as well. Obvious lesbophobia. I've seen it in others as well, which may or not be combined with bodily dysphoria, the desire to be 'normal'.

I'm always sceptical too of the 'I've known since I was 4' thing. I can't remember anything from when I was 4 although I'm sure that when I came out to family as a lesbian, someone starting saying stuff about 'you never did like boys, you always played with boys toys, you never liked dolls etc' Because what does a child of 4 know, apart from perhaps when they realise they are being told they shouldn't want to do a thing because they are a girl, insist they're not then? Predictable responses, totally, I'm sure it was something I did myself many times. It all depends on how you react when being told you can't do X whether you insist, why not, yes I CAN, girls should be able to do X, or instead go for, '.. okay, I'm not a girl then..........' It's WHO is wrong here, society for saying you can't, or yourself for being female.

And being a lesbian still seems to be right at the bottom of the heap.............

Lamaha · 11/04/2019 13:19

I do also think it’s social contagion both on line and at schools

I think this is a major cause. One of my FB friends (not in real life; he's American) is a young, gay, very popular writer. He sounds like a very nice guy and has a huge following. Once he posted, "so how many of you have anecdotes to share about your sex-and-gender-nonconformity?" or something along those lines.

And all his friends, hundreds of them, began boasting about how gay, how trans they are. I mean, really showing off.

One person (female) said that they have three children, one of whom is gay, one is pan, and one is questioning. She herself is pan.
The poster fell oevr himself to applaud. He congratulated her in her so very evolved family.

See, if someone with authority (and this guy is a published author; I haven't read his books, not my thing) uses loaded words like "evolved" then all the followers will also want to be evolved and start questioning; it's the cool thing to do.

I believe that many of us, when we are young, have problems fitting in, finding our niche. I wanted to be a boy, later I had an eating disorder, later I had a drink and smoking problem, later yet it was cannabis. This happened to me right up until I was 21. I was very much in limbo; smoking lots of weed, dropping out, rejecting society, finding my "tribe", which in that era was hippie-ism. Many of my friends fell into it.

Transgenderism is a ready-made niche where you get extra kudos because you are "evolved". The trouble is, many of the steps you have to take are irreversible.

Hippie men only had to cut their hair and put on a suit, or at least jeans and T shirt, hippie women only had to start wearing bras and buy clothes from proper stores, and they all only had to get a proper job, to fit into society again.

With this trend, you lose your fertility and you get a mutilated body, and you're left with that fallout if you wake up. What's not to like about it. Angry

Then of course there's the phenomenon of middle aged men. But I won't go into that as I have no experience with them at all.

Lamaha · 11/04/2019 13:21

Sorry rereading that post, it sounds as if the main theme of his post was gayness. But no he is absolutely pro-trans as well and was congratulating the trans people, patting them on the back etc. I didn't read all the comments; but that word jumped out at me: "evolved". This is the narrative he is promoting, that it's really evolved to by gay and/or trans.

Lamaha · 11/04/2019 13:24

And people like this look so very cool, don't they! Who wouldn't want to be different, break taboos, shock the grown-ups! It's what we DO!

Are there identifiable causes for being trans?
R0wantrees · 11/04/2019 13:35

What should have happened is physicians saying "NO, I am very sorry but it is medically impossible to change sex." Much of the pseudoscientific bunk propaganda so-called evidence being put out by the trans lobby appears to be retroactively trying to justify an initial decision made in a different era by male patients and male doctors. They need to invent an explanation that will fit their narrative.

The impact that homphobia/sexism & 'god complex' played in the influential early 'gender specialists' has yet to be fully acknowledged.

These have been very influential individuals who played a very significant role in creating the narrative/transideology

Trousering · 11/04/2019 13:35

Nope he's not cool, he's a man who has let his sexual obsession get the better of him and is now walking around with it all on public display.

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2019 13:38

And all his friends, hundreds of them, began boasting about how gay, how trans they are. I mean, really showing off.

I've heard comment about how common competitive 'my parents were cooler than yours' or the converse 'my coming out was more horrendous than yours' is.

Lamaha · 11/04/2019 13:48

Nope he's not cool, he's a man who has let his sexual obsession get the better of him and is now walking around with it all on public display.

Young, vulnerable people might disagree with you.
As for me, I'm just a boring old granny going on 70! Wink

waterygrass · 11/04/2019 13:52

I have a friend who is a transwoman. She had reassignment surgery over 20 years ago and is in a long and happy marriage with a man. She said she just never felt like a man. Her family reacted adversely when she first starting living as a woman but they came around. She lives a very happy and fulfilled life and has no regrets.

heresyisthenewblack · 11/04/2019 13:54

Is it a bit like faeries in Peter Pan?
If we stop applauding, will people cease to spout ridiculous nonsense?
I really cannot muster up any enthusiasm for a gender identity story, or more meditations on queer theory. I'm just so bored by it all now. I'd honestly rather read the phonebook than sit through another "stunning and brave" article at this point (at least I might find something useful in a directory).

OldCrone · 11/04/2019 13:58

And people like this look so very cool, don't they! Who wouldn't want to be different, break taboos, shock the grown-ups! It's what we DO!

If he was a bloke who was showing how men didn't have to conform to a stereotype, he would be cool. What's not cool is saying that changing the way he looks makes him a woman.

OldCrone · 11/04/2019 13:59

She said she just never felt like a man.

Being a man isn't a feeling, it's a biological reality.

waterygrass · 11/04/2019 14:19

Being a man isn't a feeling, it's a biological reality.

My friend doesn't deny she's biologically a man. But she doesn't feel like one. We're not her. We don't know what it feels like to be her then or now.

Haz1516 · 11/04/2019 14:20

The transwoman I know had a mother who longed for a girl but only had sons. They were very close to their mother, who was very much a 1950s housewife stereotype (which seems to be what they now try to emulate). I think this coupled with going to an all boys rugby/boxing focused school, a sensitive disposition, and not feeling like they fitted in during adolescence. Plus probably a dose of mild autism.

heresyisthenewblack · 11/04/2019 14:26

My friend doesn't deny she's biologically a man. But she doesn't feel like one. We're not her. We don't know what it feels like to be her then or now.

By that very same logic: your friend is not biologically a woman, so cannot possibly know what being female "feels like." Your friend is not of the female sex. Then or now.

R0wantrees · 11/04/2019 14:27

extended important article by Hacsi Horváth which is worth reading in full.
Hacsi Horvath has bothrelevent professional qualification & personal experience relevent to his comments:

"I am an adjunct Lecturer in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF). I’m an expert in clinical epidemiology, particularly in systematic review methods, epidemiologic bias and evidence quality assessment. As a researcher at UCSF, I managed the Cochrane HIV/AIDS Group for over a decade and on several occasions served as a consultant to the World Health Organization (WHO) in their HIV guideline development processes.

Published by 4thWaveNow:
'The Theatre of the Body: A detransitioned epidemiologist examines suicidality, affirmation, and transgender identity'
(extract)

"For about 13 years, I also masqueraded “as a woman,” taking medical measures which suggest, shall we say, that I was completely committed to that lifestyle. Most men would have recoiled from this, but in my estrogen-drug-soaked stupor it seemed like a good idea. In 2013 I stopped taking estrogen for health reasons and very rapidly came back to my senses. I ceased all effort to convey the impression that I was a woman and carried on with life." (continues)

"I don’t believe GD [gender dysphoria] reflects any kind of problem or glitch in the human body. Here’s what I suggest, in broad strokes, is going on with adolescents and adults:

Heterosexual males (the vast majority of men with GD) have autogynephilia.
Homosexual males with GD enjoy “femininity” and mistakenly believe this means they are “trans” or even women.
Females with GD have internalized misogyny and/or internalized homophobia.
In my opinion—which is based upon extensive research, as well as my own 13-year-long experience in pretending to be a woman–GD is only superficially concerned with one’s sex. It’s more a disturbance of identity, of mistaking the signifier for the signified. Patients have whatever mental illnesses they may have, or that develop while in the ruminations and hypomanic states that typically precede “coming out as trans.” I propose that GD is a moody, brooding syndrome that accompanies these mental illnesses. People with GD have cultivated an idealized vision of themselves as the opposite sex. At a critical point of rumination, after the patient has sufficiently disparaged his or her actual life and idealized life as the opposite sex, he or she realizes that body parts of the opposite sex may be obtained through the services of doctors (Raymond 1979, Billings 1982). Actually transforming into the opposite sex starts to seem feasible. The self-conception “splits” in two, and idealization becomes identity. Having negated any value in their actual male or female presence in the world, and now feeling themselves to actually be the self-generated persona, patients perseveratively ask themselves, “what’s stopping me?” “Feasibility” seems to trigger the split. Here begins the acute phase of GD.

Patients become obsessed with “transition.” To the same extent that they can be energized by the belief that they are making “progress,” as their bodies morph via the hormone drugs and shop clerks address them by their preferred honorifics (i.e. Miss or Ma’am for the males, Sir for the females), they can also feel destroyed by any little delay or perceived setback—including being “misgendered” or identified by others as their actual sex. Nothing else matters but “transition.” The apparent certainty of these patients, as well as their zeal to continue, is seen by “affirmative care” doctors as evidence of “being trans.” (continues)

I agree with the late French psychoanalyst Colette Chiland when she said: “Transsexuals stage everything in the theatre of the body, and nothing in that of the psyche” (Chiland 2003). It is true that persons in the driven, obsessed stages of gender dysphoria can seemingly think of nothing except transition. No-one dreams of asking them to slow down, to seek psychotherapy, perhaps even find a way through this work to prevent transition, which can be costly on so many levels. It would be like standing in the way of a bolting, bucking horse. The fact that people with gender dysphoria are like this is a sign that something is wrong, yet they are not impeded at all.

But doctors are doctors and patients are patients. These surgeries and lifelong hormonal drug regimens didn’t used to be given out like crackerjack prizes. Virtually no research has been done in psychotherapeutic methods to alleviate the symptoms of gender dysphoria, prevent it, or get rid of it altogether. The entire literature comprises a couple of dozen case reports and small case series, some promising, nearly all from before 1990, and all using archaic methods. Based primarily on the pronouncement of Harry Benjamin, the “godfather” of transsexualism, that psychotherapy with these patients was a waste of time, the medical profession increasingly found ways to justify surgical and hormonal transition as the standard of care (Billings 1982). I will get back to this near the end of the article." (continues)
4thwavenow.com/2018/12/19/the-theatre-of-the-body-a-detransitioned-epidemiologist-examines-suicidality-affirmation-and-transgender-identity/