Pride In London - A Pride Without Hate

[severnbore]

prideinlondon.org/news/2019/3/31/a-pride-without-hate

'Susie Green, CEO of Mermaids said: To back out of Pride in London when they are showing that they are addressing these issues only bows to hate. Mermaids is working with our partners and Pride in London. We will only take part if we are satisfied that concerns have been addressed and that security and safety, especially of vulnerable people, particularly children, is paramount. Pride in London have apologised for the mistakes made last year, and the distress caused. They are committed to standing up to intimidation and oppression. So are Mermaids, alongside our partners Stonewall, UK Black Pride and We Level Up”. '

The devastation wreaked by those 8 lesbians! Central London is still a wasteland...

Why does SG get to dictate conditions in this way?

You've not come across the male lesbian, Sky?

Well you are in for a treat.

It is all slippery though. We are dealing with semantics + affect + poststructuralism + biology. These arguments come down to our differing experiences and our varying beliefs in the truth or veracity of these categories.

I know some of you are unhappy with the concept of being 'nice' and I get that. But we are all of us different. What I always return to is an ethic of basic human mutual respect and empathy.

Re the lesbians and penis thing, its a non-argument. Fundamentally anyone who tries to force or guilt trip someone else into a sexual interaction is wrong. But this propensity isn't limited to one group. I've personally been sexually and physically assaulted by at least two women as well as several men. I'm not after sympathy here but just want to point out the fallacy in that particular argument.

Skyza you've completely confused gender stereotypes with heteronormativity.
And on that glaring error your whole argument falls. Shame really but if you can't keep up, Mumsnet might not be much fun for you.

I have, actually, popchyk although they weren't a threat to my identity (I identified as bi at the time) and just turned out to be good at cunnilingus.

"basic human mutual respect and empathy."

Yes. Now, do you apply that equally across all people involved in the debate over women's rights and transgender ideology?

And by saying "it's all slippery" you're saying that nothing has any meaning, so whatever you want things to mean is what they can mean, and no one can disagree with that?

This isn't a thread about sexual assault - although I'm sorry to hear what you've experienced.

This is about whether the core aims of Pride have been seriously derailed by heterosexual or paraphilic males. And, sorry for the spoiler, the answer is a resounding yes.

Sky how do you respond to young lesbians who identified as trans, and who now say have detransitioned and say that internalised homophobia was the cause? If you google Pique Resistance and listen to their words I think it becomes a lot more difficult to think that everyone is affected in the same way by heteronormativity.

As far as I understand it, gender stereotypes are only one element of the larger concept of heteronormativity. The vast majority of literature that draws on heteronormativity as a theoretical analytical concept isn't even about trans people. It's about systemic stuff like why doctors don't take women's pain seriously and why we still have a pay gap and why marriage is still such an unfair experience for many women.

Jeez what’s all this identify skz.
Are u not just navel gazing
Crack on with life and give ove4 on the identity bollocks

It’s some stuff dreamt up by erm some odd people

Who goes about thinking about their identity.

Could you give me an example of the kind of literature that you have read about heteronormativity that talks about these kinds of gender stereotype based issues?

I do apply it across all, yes.
Slipperyness is what we grapple with in postmodern times, which is why I try not to assume I have the final word on things but to be empathic about people's experience. And I feel empathic for those young detransitioned lesbians. We need better clinical, social and educational care and support for all gender non-normative young people, both trans and not.

This is where we differ, I think: I don’t find analytical frameworks that lump everything together (we’re all queer, Gender equals heteronormative etc etc) very helpful for our understanding of the different ways in which we are affected by structural inequalities.

😮

Please clarify what you're asking for AssassinatedBeauty.

Empathy is not the issue here. We need to analyse the situation not just feel sorry for people if we are going to sort this world out.

Heteronormativity or compulsory heterosexuality (the social and legal pressures that push people to be heterosexual and define lesbian and gay relationships as abnormal) is not the reason why doctors don't take women's pain seriously or why we have a pay gap between men and women. The reason for that as has already been stated is misogyny and sexism.

You're confusing different concepts Skyzalimit. Whoever has been telling you this stuff is misinformed.

So do you spend plenty of time on sites where people support and promote transgender ideology, telling them to be nice and empathetic to feminists and women?

As far as I understand it, gender stereotypes are only one element of the larger concept of heteronormativity. The vast majority of literature that draws on heteronormativity as a theoretical analytical concept isn't even about trans people. It's about systemic stuff like why doctors don't take women's pain seriously and why we still have a pay gap and why marriage is still such an unfair experience for many women.

This is why 'heteronormativity' is not a useful term. As you define it, heteronormativity affects heterosexual women as well.

What are the other elements of 'heteronormativity' aside from gender / sex sterotypes?

How is it useful for lesbians, specifically?

Pop your post upthread is spot on.

It seems lesbians have been marginalised from their own movement. I saw an account from an older lesbian who marched in Manchester Pride - just two ladies in their 60s (the only lesbians they saw).

They were stopped and questioned four times by security and police. Simply for #MarchingInPrideWhileLesbian.

Since lesbians aren’t welcome at the March maybe someone will hold a Leabian Pride party somewhere else? I’m not in London but I’d donate to that.

Sorry I dashed off that comment in a rush and not sure I expressed myself well. Pride belongs to lesbians as much as to anyone else and I everyone does march who wants to.

Last time I went it seemed to be dominated by men on leads or dressed as babies .. would be nice if it focused more just on people than (apparent) fetishes.

Skyza I actually think you're enforcing gender stereotypes quite rigidly here - because in your mind the only people who can and would defy them are automatically LGBTetc.

The reality is it's a socially constructed box that traps most people from childhood and doesn't serve who were are as human beings. Rather than labelling anyone who doesn't subscribe to those narrow boundaries of clothing and behaviour as belonging to a special sub group of human, feminists argue it's time to break down the box and throw it away altogether.

Putting it on a pedestal because it's a really pretty glittery box that some people have a thing for just keeps us fixated on the box rather than becoming the well-rounded individuals we are meant to be.

Read what I wrote. That's not what I said.
Empathy isn't about feeling sorry for people. It's about trying to understand their point of view.

‘A Pride without hate’ - So they’ve done away with misogyny? Bloody marvellous!

Lol, heteronormativity and gender are not the same thing.

Here's an article about it specially written for feminists:

everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-is-heteronormativity/

And in the area of development studies:

www.eldis.org/keyissues/heteronormativity#chapter-1084

But mainly, I object to non-LGBTQ-identifying people having a pop at how we should run Pride. That's our baby, not yours. You have the rest of the year.

I think Ferdinand’s idea was excellent. Given the demand for Mermaid’s support, I think wholehearted support for SG’s more extreme statements, in the form of posters and banners should be front and centre. Perhaps all those women who’ve recently come out as genderfree could organise it. After all, they are entitled to attend Pride now.