Caroline farrow support thread 2

[ilovejeffgoldblum]

Hi I'm a long time lurker, who read with disgust the last thread and wants to send , to caro. I've scanned since last thread finished for new one but no luck! Hope no one minds if I start one!

In an ideal world everyone would be able to have children naturally with someone they love and want to raise children with, and all children would be wanted and loved by their parents, who can cope with them.

Obviously the world is not ideal - people who suffer infertility, don't meet the right person or are not heterosexual are unable to have children naturally with someone they love - even if they would make great parents.

Some people conceive through rape, prostitution, carelessness and/or have chaotic lives, poor lifeskills and mental illness, so both unwanted babies and babies who must be given up are born.

Those babies can be matched up with the potential parents who are unable to naturally have their own children. But it is not the ideal way to have a family. I bet me saying that made some people smart reading it.

But if people are honest and truthful, both adoptive parents and children would rather things be more ideal.

The sensitivity around admitting the painful truth that things are not always ideal has lead to cultural lies that not ideal and ideal are said to be 'no different', 'just the same', 'equally good', etc.

These comforting white lies make it difficult to discuss the ethics of eugenics, surrogacy, IVF, egg and sperm donation and I think we need to have some really honest conversations, even if it is upsetting for people whose families were created in ways that are not ideal. Women and children's rights are really being buried in the attempt to not upset or stigmatise families in less than ideal circumstances.

I wonder if there is a way forward through this.

For example, is it possible to say that an adoptive mother is no less a mother than a birth mother, without completely devaluing the importance of biological, birthing mothers?

Great post WeRiseUp

One of my closest friends is an incredible mother and grandmother whose two children are adopted. She is an inspirational woman.

Foster mums and adoptive mums are by no means less of a mother, they are ready to lavish unconditional love, time and attention on a child whom they know is likely to be more challenging.

It’s about accepting the world is messy, life is messy, picking up the pieces and supporting without necessarily encouraging others to get into a mess.

Thank you for taking the time to answer Caroline. Your views on the subject (and others!) seem considered and far from prejudiced or hateful.

The reaction to my asking made me concerned that your views would be much more extreme than they appear to be.

The reaction to my asking made me concerned that your views would be much more extreme than they appear to be.

It is not this at all. Caroline is being supported because the abuse she is receiving as a result of her views (or perhaps as a result of simple misogyny - who knows) is unacceptable. Not because people necessarily support her views.

I don't however particularly wish to continue supporting someone who's views regarding the gay community don't align with my own.

You seem to have a different take. Why should someone's views have to accord with your own before you can support their right to free speech. That's not free speech at all.

WeRiseUp that is an excellent post. It's how I feel too, but would have found it difficult to put into words.

Free speech is hugely important - it cannot be said enough. We do not live in a free society without the freedom to discuss difficult concepts.

Caro is not, IMO bigoted - but thoughtful and considered in her views. The Twitterati will have you believe she's calling for the burning of the gays - which is ridiculous.

Caro's beliefs are protected by Human Rights legislation, I think (I wish we had a constitution like the US, but hey ho) - but regardless of any legislation, it is outrageous that Caro, her husband, her ex, and her children have been embroiled in this abuse and harassment for her views.

It's got nothing to do with me not believing in her right to free speech, or thinking that the abuse her and her family have received is somehow ok if I don't agree with all of her opinions.

I was just reconsidering whether her experiences would necessarily continue to be an example I used when raising GC ideas with friends who are new to the discussion. I have plenty of friends who would use homophobia on Caroline's part as a reason to say "see GC = hateful, transphobic, homophobic" etc.

Your support for Caroline may be based solely on free speech, which is admirable, but mine is also based on a broad agreement with the views she espouses in relation to trans issues.

I disagree with Caroline on a lot of things outside of the trans issue tbh, but I still think the way that she is being treated is absolutely disgusting.

I have plenty of friends who would use homophobia on Caroline's part as a reason to say "see GC = hateful, transphobic, homophobic" etc.

Really? I’m glad I have friends that are able to discuss things issue by issue and not right a person off because they disagree on one issue. That’s very reductive politics

It's a massive problem in politics at the moment - the tribalism rather than the critical discussion of ideas.

I've been guilty of it myself - I said to my mum "look who you're aligning yourself with - Nigel Farage, Trump..." when she voted leave.

And now the same thing is thrown back at me as a gender critical (genderfree ) feminist.

I think tribalism is always a problem with us humans. People enjoy the secure feeling of solidarity and belonging that comes with 'us' and 'them' and are afraid of being ejected for not fitting in.

I think we are seeing something special here though, where tribes have fragmented a bit because of a common threat - I sometimes worry I am going to miss this time. I enjoy the thing of radical lesbian feminists hanging out with pro-lifers who hang out with gobby dolled-up housewives who hang out with hairy arsed dockers who hang out with iconoclastic transsexuals, etc, etc - what a merry hodgepodge!

WeRiseUp, I agree. I love the diversity of people I have met, in real life or via the Internet, the breadth of topics under discussion, the good journalism and impressive academics. plus an excuse to trawl through the Mail online including the sidebar of shame

Linda Bellos, maniac magpie, Glinner, James Kirkup and the people at the Times, Dr Stock, Jane Clare Jones, Dr Susan Bewley, Rose of Dawn, Harry the Owl, MN mods and brilliant, honest and perceptive MN posters. I have barely got started. The list goes on and on.

Thank you all including Caroline. I may not agree with some/many on a host of issues, but on this one I know that whatever our political stripe, religious conviction, or background, we all care and we all know we can't afford to lose.

I've been thinking that all this 'working together in spite of differences' thing might be a great dry run for tackling impending environmental doom. Perhaps we won't have the opportunity to slink back into our comfortable tribes when all this is done.

Really? I’m glad I have friends that are able to discuss things issue by issue and not right a person off because they disagree on one issue. That’s very reductive politics.

I like being able to discuss feminist issues with a diverse range of friends, including those whose politics I disagree with. I'm not sure having such a homogenous group of friends is something I would find enjoyable, even if it would make discussing GC issues easier.

I like being able to discuss feminist issues with a diverse range of friends, including those whose politics I disagree with. I'm not sure having such a homogenous group of friends is something I would find enjoyable, even if it would make discussing GC issues easier.

Quite.

Meanwhile, this is a support thread.
Caro

Meanwhile, this is a support thread.

Indeed it is. And caro I honestly see all you say and do as coming from a thoughtful, caring and considered place.

It is people who write you off because of your spiritual beliefs who are being prejudiced bigots.

I didn't know whether or not to update this because I am feeling rather overwhelmed by all the drama and don't want to add further fuel, but given the support you have given me, I ought to update on the latest.

Last night I was approached via DM on FB by someone claiming to be behind some of the abuse. I believe they were the AngryNeighbourHoodAttackKittens or whatever the account was called, on the first support thread.

They claimed responsibility for some of the harassment and begged forgiveness. I'm not going to detail in public what they were claiming to have done, but they weren't responsible for everything; they didn't order the food or do the NSPCC report for example. Neither were they puppet boy, who appeared on here and is still on Twitter and they clearly aren't the Tombstoneteeth man.

I'm not going to invade their privacy beyond saying that they claimed to be a post-operative transwoman who is still suffering enormous physical and emotional torment. They sounded utterly desperate and in a lot of pain and wanted to do whatever they could to make it right. They have removed all of the online material that they were responsible for.

I know we can't use mental health as an excuse for appalling behaviour, but I genuinely believe that this person was out of control and under a combination of influences when they behaved as they did.

I've accepted their apology and attempts to put it right, which I cannot make public. I am still pursing things legally, because there is still ongoing harassment.

It's difficult to know what to believe but I genuinely do feel sorry for this individual who has expressed sincere mortification for what they did, not only to me, but to a friend who they also approached.

When I first began thinking about the trans issue in 2014, a transwoman told me about the relentless attacks they faced, how their home was wired up with cameras and a panic button and how they had to carry a personal alarm at all times and they didn't feel safe in public.

That deeply affected my thinking and made me very sympathetic to the plight of adults who have transitioned as I think most people on these boards are, despite the accusations of us being a hotbed of transphobia. That said, we still have to carry on discussing this in very calm, if blunt terms and find a way for everyone to be safe.

I'm still carrying on as before, but do send prayers and good vibes/energy whatever to the person who actually had the courage to come forward, say sorry, and who has begged other people to stop.

Surrey police are still yet to contact me almost a week since I reported what was going on.

Sorry but I'm just not as nice as you/very skeptical. There really is not excuse and sorry doesn’t even begin to cover it. If they said they were going to go to the police and make a clean breast and accept any punishment, then I would possible believe it. Otherwise I see someone who is running scared of exposure and making excuses.

A tough time in life does not excuse being a jackass.

Your grac

Sorry, bumpy car journey

Your grace under fire is commendable, Caroline. I am not sure I could be so magnanimous. I hope that individual seeks help.

I don’t know though LordProf. It looks as though this person is very good at covering their tracks.

Certainly Surrey police have expressed no interest beyond a crime number and if you can get away with discussing whether or not my face should be disfigured with acid, they are unlikely to care about the escalation.

Someone said they are sorry and have stopped their part in it. Under a fake name and profile which could be used as evidence.

I just think it’s all really sad as opposed to those individuals who are malevolent.

That is very gracious of you Caro. I'm certain I wouldn't have felt that way if I was in your position. I hope the police contact you soon and the other person responsible gives up this torrent of abuse. Strength to you xxx

I too think you are very gracious and I understand why you have forgiven this person.

I think the mental health of some very proximate TAs Is not always what it should be and it’s a shame they don’t/can’t get the help they so obviously need.

I hope things settle down for you Caro and the police contact you soon.

I think the mental health of some very proximate TAs Is not always what it should be and it’s a shame they don’t/can’t get the help they so obviously need.

Yes. And one thing they really don't need is to be whipped up by malicious twitterers (some of whom bloody well ought to know better) against Caro.

Still hmmmm about this. I would find it very hard to trust and believe them. Leopards and sports and all that. Have they contacted the police - would they tell them who was involved and give a statement?