BBC "top story": How I came out as non-binary to my parents

[ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4zw5Wg0F6czNqqQqPFmQzft/how-i-came-out-as-non-binary-to-my-parents

*"I had to think about how I was going to talk to mum and dad about it. I thought about how much I would have to explain, how many questions I still had unanswered about myself, and how dumb I was going to sound.

As luck would have it, almost at that very moment I got a podcast about my gender identity called NB commissioned. So I made all my insecurities and all my questions into a series. "*

Uh huh.

I do hope Caitlin will have another podcast commissioned in 10 years time when they're too old to look cool in silly glasses. After they've had a few kids and suddenly become invisible to society, and all their free time is spent being the default parent while their uber-woke partner continues to insist they're too special to stay home and help with the baby, and everyone is endlessly asking how they balance career and motherhood, judging them for staying home or using childcare, judging how they feed their baby, dismissing their opinions as a "silly mum". Or maybe they won't have children and will face all the discrimination and prejudice that comes with choosing not to use their female reproductive organs. And I do hope they'll use that podcast to update us all on just how silly the whole concept of sexual dimorphism turned out to be.

I'm old now, aren't I? This is what it feels like to be old.

It doesn't need to be a graspable useful concept to you for it to be one for other people.

I think for me the "not a graspable concept" bit is important because it is honestly my main barrier to empathy with the trans community. Not that I don't feel sympathy, of course I do, but I can't properly empathise because I genuinely have no concept at all of what they're experiencing. I can empathise with people with different sexualities because I know what it feels like to be attracted to someone sexually. I can think about how I'm attracted to people of the opposite sex, and it's easy for me to extrapolate and imagine what it must feel like to be attracted to someone of the same sex. If I had a sense of having a "gender identity" that was inline with my biological sex, then I would be able to imagine what it felt like to have a "gender identity" that wasn't inline with my sex. I wouldn't know what that felt like, but as a concept I would find it easy to understand, and I'd be able to extrapolate and empathise based on my own experience. But I don't. I have no idea what people mean when they talk about their "gender identity". They insist that everyone has one, but I have no understanding of this. I don't understand when people say they feel or don't feel "like a woman" because there is no external "woman-feel" point of reference. I am a woman. However I feel is how a woman feels. A man cannot feel like a woman because that would require access to some shared reference point, which doesn't exist. It's like some weird modern version of Plato's "theory of Forms" where any object or concept can only be made by reference to a perfect immaterial "form" of that object. A triangle is a triangle because it is drawn with reference to an immutable aspacial atemporal triangle blueprint. Is that what "gender" means? Is it a Platonic "what-it-means-to-be-a-woman" blueprint that exists independent of subjective experience or material reality? I'm not trying to be an asshole but I seriously don't understand this dualism of mind/soul/essence and body that trans/NB people seem to be experiencing. It's important to me to try and make this concept "graspable" because I genuinely don't think I can move from sympathy to empathy without it.

Caitlin looks like a very attractive, deliberately androgynous young woman to me. I hope she doesn’t take testosterone, or her beautiful hair will fall out.

Someone on another thread suggested we were on our way to a Hunger Games Capitol type fascination with appearance. Then I saw the picture on the article.

Well said OP, I can completely 'identify' with your statement

I have a personality and a moral compass and thoughts and feelings as a person. I don't have a gender identity.

I'm enjoying posts in another FWR thread about being #genderfree which I am now (whilst remaining biologically female). I didn't have a word for it before but if we're adding new words and phrases to this like non-binary etc then I don't see why we can't use gender free if we are free of genders.

I'll be honest, I don't think that anyone on this earth has felt something no one else has ever felt about themselves. And it's obviously fine to talk about and investigate those things.

Most posters on FWR understand the desire to demolish Gender. It's a big part of feminist thinking. To go back to Ash Hardell, they did a video about them going to their employers and getting an agreement that they could wear a different uniform to the other female employees, due to their being Non Binary. The female uniform didn't feel 'right' or comfortable to Ash.

So Ash sorted Ash out. I don't even know if Ash ever did start wearing the other uniform, but Ash got a big kick out of having their concerns heard and an agreement reached, and that was that.

Ash didn't break the chains of Gender with their agreement. Ash set up a privilege for Ash and the NB ID was the lever used.

If you want to demolish Gender, and you call yourself a feminist, you do things which benefit other women stuck in the Gender prison, not just you.

What Caitlin has done with her podcast and her article that focuses on 'coming out' solely as a way to affirm feelings, not as something potentially disadvantageous or even dangerous as is it for gay and lesbian people, is set up an 'opt out', which is why it's put people's backs up so much.

Caitlin isn't breaking the binary, Caitlin is accepting the binary but insisting Caitlin is one of the people who don't have to follow the rules.

Does any of that help explain why those here who aren't impressed at all have been negative about it? I sense you read it as a personalized attack, but I hope I've clarified it a little.

It's interesting you mention not fancying anyone for a long time Billy. I think for me hearing people insist that I must be either "cis" or "trans" or something in the middle, is a bit like insisting to an asexual person that they must be either gay, straight, or bi. Whatever this "Gender" is that some people have and are able to access and identify with and experience as being either in or out of sync with their body, I don't have it. I use Gender with a big G to mean the use of gender as something innate and unchangeable, rather than the small g gender where gender is the sex stereotypes associated with our culture. Basically (and sorry for rambling), either Gender is an innate immutable part of people, in which case I don't have one or don't have access to it, or gender is a social construct which I reject and refuse to live in accordance with. Unless there's a better definition on offer then I have to assume that I, and I suspect the vast majority of posters on this thread, should be considered either agender/gender free, or non binary. I don't experience any dysphoria towards my secondary sex characteristics but as has been discussed this doesn't seem to be required.

Caitlin looks like a very attractive, deliberately androgynous young woman to me.
Compared to some of the dykes I used to know, they aren't that androgynous at all (and aren't trying that hard!). Really!

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings I get where you're coming from. I've been trying my best to describe it but unfortunately I have trouble understanding my own feelings, never mind expressing them well to others! Especially when it's things that sound stupid or embarrassing. There's so many different people all using non-binary for different reasons and perhaps with different issues mixed in, I don't know myself if it's a real thing or just a group of people with similar "symptoms". You're not coming across as an areshole though

Perfect explanation FloralBunting

Its quite sweet. Back in the day, a child coming out (and I mean proper coming out) and was the risk that there would be tears, possibly anger and rejection.

If DS came out as special snowflake non-binary pup-boy I would probably pee myself laughing. Then remind him of when he was at nursery and used to pretend to be a dog, then a cat.

Awww bless the weans.

There's a man at my husbands work who sometimes comes to work dressed as a man with a man's name and called 'he'. Sometimes he comes to work dressed as a woman with make-up, a female name and called 'she'. Now I was wondering the other day, if clothes were unisex (not as daft as it sounds - the local school has everyone wearing identical hoodies and girls can wear trousers) and given that not all women wear make-up and some men do, in that world how would this individual signal that today was a 'woman day' or a 'man day'? They are the same person with the same personality and abilities. And in that world what would 'being a woman' if you have a male body mean? Makes clear to me that this is all based on stereotypes and if you get rid of those being trans doesn't mean anything.

Glad I'm not coming over as an asshole Billy! Back when I was at medschool I spent part of my psych rotation in an adult GID clinic and met a lot of trans people on medical pathways. They fitted exactly the patterns often discussed on here. Every single one of them was either a lesbian under 20 (FtM) or a straight white middle-aged man (MtF). The FtM patients would come in, receive news of their mastectomy or hysterectomy being approved, and break down in tears of joy. The MtF would often come in complaining that the NHS service was taking too long and that they'd bought the required drugs online and/or paid to have surgery done in Thailand. The FtM were self-conscious about the acne and weight gain caused by Testosterone. They were mostly single and at college or uni for stereo-typically female courses (nursing/ childcare etc). The MtF wore heavy makeup and revealing clothes. They were mostly going through bitter divorces and estranged from their adult children. Obviously not every trans person fits these descriptions, but statistically these are the most common groups and my own experience definitely matched that. I tried so hard during that rotation to understand how they were feeling, because for someone to cut off parts of their body I have no doubt that they're feeling something very real and very extreme. I really don't think they're lying about feeling whatever they're feeling. But years later I still am no closer to understanding what that feeling is. I have absolutely no point of reference or comparison to base my understanding on. I have a better idea of what people mean when they describe feeling connected to a God than I do when they describe feeling connected to a Gender. Even the consultant psychiatrist admitted to not understanding it. But then again he spent most of his time bragging about how a career in GIDS had helped him afford to get his pilots licence. So when I see people like Caitlin, who (sorry) honestly seem just to be following a fad, and the increasingly ridiculous scope of the trans umbrella, the rejection of dysphoria as a part of being trans, and the hostility of TRAs towards non medical solutions for dysphoric patients, it seems like such a slap in the face for those patients I met whose lives are being ruined by whatever they're experiencing. Their condition needs proper research, but the trendy propagating of the trans agenda by every narc and hipster who wants their 5 minutes of being special, is stopping that research from happening. Caitlin's cool haircut and podcast worthy introspection will probably be nothing more than a funny story to her in 10 years time, but it's contributing in a very real way to a climate where people in extreme distress are not being properly helped or understood.

I love the idea of gender-free! I always considered gender to be a social construct where we're all expected to behave in accordance with stereotypes. But that's not mutually exclusive to people feeling that their body is or should be a different sex.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD: Its quite sweet. Back in the day, a child coming out (and I mean proper coming out) and was the risk that there would be tears, possibly anger and rejection. If DS came out as special snowflake non-binary pup-boy I would probably pee myself laughing. Then remind him of when he was at nursery and used to pretend to be a dog, then a cat. Awww bless the weans.
And isn't your DS lucky that instead of anger and rejection they would get belittling and rejection instead?

That makes perfect sense ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings and FloralBunting! I do try to give the benefit of the doubt and remember that I don't know how that person is really feeling, which judging by your posts you seem to be doing too.

The difficulty I have with the concept of "coming out as non-binary" is - well so what? What happens? What changes?

Clearly coming out as gay, lesbian or trans is an announcement that going forward that person's life and their interaction with friends and family is going to be different. Not different in a bad way but different.

How is any one's life changed by announcing they are NB?

How is any one's life changed by announcing they are NB?
It's not but perhaps the non-binary person just want's to share something with you that they find important. Or they hope you will use a different name or pronouns to help them feel better.

Clearly coming out as gay... that person's life and their interaction with friends and family is going to be different
I'm in a happy monogomous relationship, why would finding out someone was gay mean I was going to interact with them any differently?

That's interesting and I can identify with a lot of it. Have you (or SomeDyke or anyone else) ever seen a bloke and thought "that's how I want to look physically" then remembered that you're a woman and felt sad that you'll never be able to be who you really are? Then on another day felt like you actually have a male body and everyone can tell but you wish they thought you were female?

Not quite...but I have looked at very attractive men and thought,"if I was a guy I'd fancy you" . I can imagine being a gay male.

Hey FloralBunting, since I said I'd leave them to it in that "Peak Trans" thread I'll mention this here, I wasn't asking you to be nice. That only came up because OP asked why I thought we disagreed (they mentioned "can’t we just be kind" not being a good idea - that's an area we disagreed on so I mentioned it).

BillyBadBreaks, yes, I understand that some people do think that everyone should be kind at all times, and it does come up as a point of disagreement here, because that injunction to be kind is often leveraged against women speaking in their own best interests.

Obviously, no one should go out of their way to be cruel, but the definition of kindness often used by those don't want these topics and everything around them examined is being quiet when women and girls are put in harm's way, and it's an odd definition of 'kind' that would see protecting the vulnerable as a bad thing.

The women here do very often post in ways that are perceived as unkind by those who believe in certain acquiescent behaviour as something to expect from women. Not one of the regulars has anything but the rights and protections of women and girls as their priority. In our culture this can often seem jarring, but that's only because women and girls are so far down the pecking order already.

I don't know if you intend to stick around, but if you do, you will bump up against quite a bit of conversation you might find uncomfortable if you don't centre women in your politics and thinking. If you're at all interested in finding out why we take this approach, then I would recommend taking some time to read some of this thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

This is a great thread, am really enjoying it.

I’m just adding my tuppence as way back earlier someone was asking if they knew any male bodied NBs. I know a couple, who fall down into the whole textbook Blanchard (? think it’s him) division: one being a gay GNC male teenager, the other a autogynophile middle aged man. I think for the first it means that he can experiment with femininity in appearance without scaring himself too much with going full scale trans; for the other, he is a narcissist who likes to have his cake and eat it whatever way he likes and because he has always been frustrated by being a straight white rich male he now gets off on telling everyone else - esp women - how oppressed he is.

The problem with NB (apart from the excellent summaries covered previously on this thread) is, like all these gender terms, it manages to be frustratingly narrow but also to encompass a wide range of motivations, some of which affect only the damaged individual, some of which are dangerous for women.

FloralBunting Thanks for the link, although it's a bit long for reading tonight! Again, I haven't been arguing for people to be nice, it was just mentioned in passing. I wouldn't expect people of any gender to be nice, just hope for it and strive for it myself. I mainly find these topics uncomfortable because I see forums as a place to have a chat but a lot of other people seem to have their debating hats on.

In this thread I've been trying to share a different perspective on what it might be to be non-binary, in the other one I was literally just wondering what they were talking about - never meant that one to turn into a big debate! Perhaps I should stick to less political forums

Lol, well, honestly, we do have fun here, but we're a pretty activist bunch. Every woman has her tipping point when these things become more important. You may simply not have reached yours yet. I guess some women never do. But if you do, FWR is likely to be here, opening eyes and fighting for better things. I wish you well.

I'm in a happy monogomous relationship, why would finding out someone was gay mean I was going to interact with them any differently?

Oh fgs - one would avoid heternirmative assumptions. One real life example I can think of was 2 extremely eligible but very conservative not out male friends could finally be open about who they were. If you These friends were in their 30s before they came out.

Or if my son told me he was gay I would probably think my chances of being a grandmother are less. No big deal there On the other hand If my son told me he was gay and he was going to use a surrogate , then sorry- that would be a bloody big deal for my future dealings with him.

Or they hope you will use a different name or pronouns to help them feel better.

You see, this is my problem. I don't think other people have a responsibility to make others feel better about themselves.

Other people have a responsibility to be honest and truthful, and to treat one with respect. But respect doesn't always mean compliance with demands. That's a bit like having to tread on egg shells around a very 'delicate' person - who because of their delicacy exerts control over all of those around them.

Perhaps I should stick to less political forums

I really do think that much of the personal is actually very political. That is if you understand politics to be about the dynamics of relationships and how power/subservience is expressed through them.

That's a bit like having to tread on egg shells around a very 'delicate' person - who because of their delicacy exerts control over all of those around them.

It's exactly what it is. It isn't "kind" to anyone, not least the person avoiding reality, to lie to them either.