BBC "top story": How I came out as non-binary to my parents

[ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4zw5Wg0F6czNqqQqPFmQzft/how-i-came-out-as-non-binary-to-my-parents

*"I had to think about how I was going to talk to mum and dad about it. I thought about how much I would have to explain, how many questions I still had unanswered about myself, and how dumb I was going to sound.

As luck would have it, almost at that very moment I got a podcast about my gender identity called NB commissioned. So I made all my insecurities and all my questions into a series. "*

Uh huh.

I do hope Caitlin will have another podcast commissioned in 10 years time when they're too old to look cool in silly glasses. After they've had a few kids and suddenly become invisible to society, and all their free time is spent being the default parent while their uber-woke partner continues to insist they're too special to stay home and help with the baby, and everyone is endlessly asking how they balance career and motherhood, judging them for staying home or using childcare, judging how they feed their baby, dismissing their opinions as a "silly mum". Or maybe they won't have children and will face all the discrimination and prejudice that comes with choosing not to use their female reproductive organs. And I do hope they'll use that podcast to update us all on just how silly the whole concept of sexual dimorphism turned out to be.

I'm old now, aren't I? This is what it feels like to be old.

A friends 14 year old 'came out' as non-binary a few weeks back. Friends response was to ask basically, how does non-binary differ from personality. Which everyone has. Child thought for a second, then decided its not different at all.

A few years ago they would just have been an Emo or a Goth.

FwIW, and in the spirit of kindness, as you did share something personal about your physical insecurities, I hated my vulva from about the age of 9 up. I wished it wasn't there, and would pretend that was the case when I pretended to be a boy in the park. I could barely look at myself when i went to the loo or had a wash.

And in my case, it was because I was sexually abused as a child by a boy a little older, and much bigger than me. I suspect that for a lot of young women who identify out of being women these days, there will be a similar motivation, sadly.

if it means you wish to harm your body with medical and surgical intervention, it really means you have some deep seated issues to explore through some kind of counselling.

Hating a part of your body is not a healthy state of mind. If someone is going to make major and irreversible changes to their body because of body hatred, the reasons for that hatred really need to be explored with counselling. But it seems as though as soon as the magic 'gender' word is uttered, the counselling becomes 'conversion therapy', and the medical and surgical changes to the body become essential requirements to become one's true self. Insane.

Does Caitlin feel non-binary when they has their period? (has? have? I need help here)

Or have I just said something unbelievably crass. It’s hard to know.

For those who don't want men in your women's spaces, what if you felt you didn't fit there yourself but couldn't go to the men's either? Would you not look for a place where you do fit?

Feelings of not fitting or belonging are a normal right of adolescent passage. The problem is these days there is a whole cornucopia of trans ideology, surgical 'solutions' and big pharma waiting in the wings to 'guide' you.

'Crazy Like Us' - an interesting and revealing book about the exportation of various psychological maladies from the U.S to the rest of the world. This recent trans thing is largely a fad; a contemporary way to deal with the feelings you describe.

Non-binary are the epitome of gender identity ideology.

In a world with so much information, so much stimulus, when you feel unimportant and insignificant, people used to look to God to give life meaning. Now when everything is too much, you can just 'come out' as being different, special, not part of this boring binary that you can't take anymore.

I too would like to know what a binary woman is supposed to look like. So far the only definitions I've heard anyone offer are:

• Binary woman = princess barbie
• Someone who has a deep sense of themselves "as a woman" (which makes the definition immediately circular)
• Someone with something called a Gender, which I infer from context is like a soul, and that soul somehow has its own sex class, and your soul is the same sex as your body
• Someone who doesn't feel strongly that they don't have a soul that is of the opposite sex class

If there's a definition out there that isn't reductive stereotypes, circular reasoning, or quasi religious word salad I sincerely welcome it because none of those make any damn sense to me because someone just made them up off the top of their heads So unless someone can give me a more coherent definition of "binary" I think it's fair to assume that most people are "non binary".

I do sympathise with anyone experiencing dysphoria though. Having spent most of my youth struggling with self harm and anorexia in an attempt to cope with not being princess barbie, hating your body is a terrible thing to go through. Now in my 30s with a body very much changed by childbirth, I'm at peace with and love my female body, and I feel crushed for all the young women surgically altering themselves rather than find that peace.

I find it hard to believe that someone whose first act upon "coming out" as non binary is to get a podcast commissioned about it, falls into the "life ruining dysphoria" category though.

Are you saying there's loads of women on here who who feel terrible about the fact that they have boobs to the point that they would consider having them removed?

I think at certain points in their adolescence then most women have probably felt alienated from their bodies, yes!. With all that their developing womanly body implies. But in times gone by there wasn't a huge industry and social media presence around the very real possibility that you might actually attempt to subvert or attempt to change your sex. You just had to adjust and get on with it.

Mind/body integration has always been the goal of most psychotherapies. And of course here 'body' also carries heavy social meaning - and that is the main problem. The feelings and expectations around gendered social stereotypes.

Sometimes I feel bad that my boobs aren't good enough. Sometimes I feel bad that I have them at all.

It really does sound as if you are struggling with gendered expectations and stereotypes. Your breasts have become such a site of conflict and trauma - because of their social significance.

Mind/body integration has always been the goal of most psychotherapies

Absolutely, and the foundation of Genderism is mind body dualism, with the mind being the only "true" bit.

Are you saying there's loads of women on here who who feel terrible about the fact that they have boobs to the point that they would consider having them removed?

Have you seen 10 years younger? Those people get carved up and sewn back together again and end up crying with gratitude. It's horrendous that self hatred to the point of extreme elective surgery has become so normalised in our society that we've now basically invented a religion to celebrate it.

This article by Rebecca Reilly-Cooper is really, really good.

“I would be happy with this implication, because despite possessing female biology and calling myself a woman, I do not consider myself a two-dimensional gender stereotype. I am not an ideal manifestation of the essence of womanhood, and so I am non-binary. Just like everybody else. However, those who describe themselves as non-binary are unlikely to be satisfied with this conclusion, as their identity as ‘non-binary person’ depends upon the existence of a much larger group of so-called binary ‘cisgender’ people, people who are incapable of being outside the arbitrary masculine/feminine genders dictated by society.

And here we have an irony about some people insisting that they and a handful of their fellow gender revolutionaries are non-binary: in doing so, they create a false binary between those who conform to the gender norms associated with their sex, and those who do not. In reality, everybody is non-binary. We all actively participate in some gender norms, passively acquiesce with others, and positively rail against others still. So to call oneself non-binary is in fact to create a new false binary. It also often seems to involve, at least implicitly, placing oneself on the more complex and interesting side of that binary, enabling the non-binary person to claim to be both misunderstood and politically oppressed by the binary cisgender people.”

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

That's why I like genderfree, or gender-free, or gender free, as the case may be. Because it rejects all the gender bollocks.

People don't need to choose a gender. Totally unnecessary, considering bloody "gender" is man-made! Gender is utter bollocks.

Free of gender, personally. And comfortable shoes and boots are non-negotiable.

People have their bodies, and people are either female or they're male.

Wear whatever you desire.

‘Gender’ is also used inconsistently. More and more it is used in the meaning of ‘gender identity’ and it is of course also misused in place of sex.

We ought all be clear that there are currently three meanings of gender:

1. to mean biological sex. This is immutable and determined at conception.

2. socially constructed gendered demands and expectations. We all live through lifelong gendered socialisation, e.g. the expectation that women will be nice and kind, and put other peoples needs and feelings before our own. Especially mens. Men learn to expect this from women, while they themselves are socialised into having a senseof entitlement. Radical feminists have made it their business to clarify gendered socialisations and fight against them.

3. gender identity. Some people claim to have them, most don’t. Nevertheless, the people who insist they have them, also insist these are innate and everyone has one.

I expect ‘nonbinary’ identified’ youngsters are people who have given up searching for this gender identitythey supposedly have and/or don’t recognise themselves in any stereotyped representations of female and male genders. Plus they get a place under the coveted ‘cool’ and ‘interesting’ trans umbrella.

It seems to me that the goal of AWA’s is to get rid of 1) and 2) above, in the sense that biological sex should be deemed irrelevant, and any idea of gendered socialisations or understanding of gender as socially constructed should be abandoned. Young people who may have grown up believing that sex is irrelevantand that ‘gender’ always refers to ‘gender identity’ are bound to be perturbed to feel they don’t have one, and so the idea of ‘nonbinary’ must seem a godsend.

Nobody seems to be able to define non binary including me.

Is it possible that when people "come out" as non binary it is code for "I am gay but knowing how my family would react to THAT I'm just saying this for now to see how that pans out..."

I didn't read the whole article (why would I?) but did the young woman mention which sex she is attracted to sexually?

It must be very intense for people, especially girls, growing up in these days of social media and instantly available pornography of the violent and disturbing kind. Even being exposed to the milder pornography of many years ago was a very discomforting experience for me as a girl; and I look back and realise how much images i saw shaped my imagination around sex.

Wanting to reject all of that, or certainly not identifying with any of it is perfectly normal, even for girls who are heterosexual in orientation.
today, children and young people are presented with an easy opt out in the form of trans ideology and faddism, and one which elevates them to feeling special and celebrated.

Is it possible that when people "come out" as non binary it is code for "I am gay but knowing how my family would react to THAT I'm just saying this for now to see how that pans out..."

Perhaps we've got to the point where young gay people no longer even identify with the word gay? They have been brought up and surrounded by 'trans' and 'non-binary' as markers of sexual orientation - even though it is now cloaked in the language of gender rather than sex.

Is it possible that when people "come out" as non binary it is code for "I am gay but knowing how my family would react to THAT I'm just saying this for now to see how that pans out..."

I think in my dd's case, it is more that she is a slow developer and not yet sexually interested in anyone, yet feeling societal pressure to take on a label. She is not 'allowed' to just be herself.

I think in my dd's case, it is more that she is a slow developer and not yet sexually interested in anyone, yet feeling societal pressure to take on a label. She is not 'allowed' to just be herself.

This is the issue. formerly she may have become an EMO and hung around public spaces with her friends, feeling unique and a bit 'different' - but now she is expecting you to use incorrect pronouns when referring to her. The danger of that is that she might develop an expectation that the world revolves around, and changes as a result, of her emerging identity, and that this is normal.

Exactly. Which is why we acceded to the aspect of her identity which is self-referencing and can be changed by the individual - her name - but not the aspects which are not self-referencing - the pronouns which are used by others to refer to that individual.

Exactly. Which is why we acceded to the aspect of her identity which is self-referencing and can be changed by the individual - her name - but not the aspects which are not self-referencing - the pronouns which are used by others to refer to that individual.

You're probably doing the right thing. Perhaps sharing stories of your own youthful struggles around identity would be good too. The clothes you wore; the music you listened to.

The pressure on young people in today's social media age is immense; and open to manipulation by those with covert motivations.

I've read the article twice and I still have no idea what they are on about.

OldCrone: Is non-binary, which includes body modifications only a female thing? Are there male non-binaries? Do they modify their bodies?
There are definitely male-bodied (for want of a better term) non-binary people. I've no idea what they do with their bodies because I don't know any.

Blueblueyellow: Does a non binary person have to be dysphoric?
Sorry but I'm really not sure about that one. Trans people argue amongst themselves about it.

FloralBunting: And in my case, it was because I was sexually abused as a child
Genuinely sorry to hear about that, it's no wonder you felt defensive discussing it. That's not the case for me. I thankfully haven't had any bad experience to cause my feelings and imagine they are likely less intense than yours.

HopeClearwate: Does Caitlin feel non-binary when they has their period? (has? have? I need help here)
I think most people use "when they have". Not the best solution grammatically but I do think it sounds a lot better than things like "zir".

Justhadathought: I think at certain points in their adolescence then most women have probably felt alienated from their bodies, yes!. With all that their developing womanly body implies. But in times gone by there wasn't a huge industry and social media presence around the very real possibility that you might actually attempt to subvert or attempt to change your sex. You just had to adjust and get on with it.
I've felt this way for as long as I can remember (since before I even knew the internet existed). I have just got on with it, unfortunately the feelings have never gone away.
It really does sound as if you are struggling with gendered expectations and stereotypes. Your breasts have become such a site of conflict and trauma - because of their social significance.
I want them better because of gendered expectations and wanting to appear "attractive". I want them gone for who knows why.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings: Have you seen 10 years younger? Those people get carved up and sewn back together again and end up crying with gratitude.
I'm trying to point out that desire to alter your body in a non-binary kind of way (moving away from social norms) is a slightly different thing to wanting to be younger or thinner. Not saying that other people aren't feeling just as bad or having surgery.

Fallingirl: I expect ‘nonbinary’ identified’ youngsters are people who have given up searching for this gender identitythey supposedly have and/or don’t recognise themselves in any stereotyped representations of female and male genders. Plus they get a place under the coveted ‘cool’ and ‘interesting’ trans umbrella.
I'm not a younster and this isn't making me "cool". It's inconvenient and I wish I'd always just felt like a woman.

For all the people talking about sexuality, that's got nothing to do with it. You can be non-binary and attracted to anyone or no one.

Having said all of that, I do agree that there are probably loads of folk saying they are non-binary to be cool or different or trying to avoid saying they're gay or escape from stereotypes. Just not all of them.

I still think the phrase "come out" is fine to use. What does someone being gay actually affect at all? To me absolutely nothing, to them, probably a whole lot.
This shows, as well as appropriation of lesbian and gay terms, a truely massive amount of ignorance (and of current news given circumstances for lesbian and gay muslims and the schools issue). Not to mention Brunei........

Claiming that NB or 'gender issues' has nothing to do with sexuality or sexual attraction is nonsense. If you knew anything about lesbian and gay history, and looked, for example, at accounts by stone butches, you would soon see that bodily dysmorphia, identity, and sexual attraction was all linked for them.

I wish I'd always just felt like a woman. There is no such thing! I'm just me. Wanting to feel like a woman because other females seem to do so, and I don't somehow fit is a slightly different matter.

At least with 'gender identity' not 'matching' sex, you can at least ask the question -- do you think you'd have been better off/happier if you had instead been born female/male? But for NB, what can you ask (apart from purely subjective internal identity) that makes sense? Do you wish you had been born a neuter makes no sense because humans (apart from on various science-fictional worlds) just are sexed.

I'm trying to point out that desire to alter your body in a non-binary kind of way (moving away from social norms).. Except bodily norms aren't social, just biological!

The lesbian community, as long as there has been such a thing, has had many women who weren't happy with the social expectations around females, and many who weren't always happy with female bodies. A variety of explanations (think Radclyffe Hall and congenital inverts according to early sexologists, where 'gender identity' and homosexuality were inextricably linked) were tried by people to explain themselves to themselves and others.

Having been around many people of different sexualities and 'gender presentations' for many years, NB still makes no sense whatsoever to me, as a graspable useful concept.

First of all, BillyBadBreaks, thanks for coming back and answering some of our questions. For me, though, every time you answer a question, it raises another.

I've felt this way for as long as I can remember (since before I even knew the internet existed). I have just got on with it, unfortunately the feelings have never gone away.

Sorry to hear that you still have so many issues with your body, especially as you say you're not that young. But do you not agree that counselling would be a better way forward, to try to come to terms with the body you have, rather than fight the way it is? I have no idea if you have tried this and it has failed, and I wouldn't expect you to discuss it on here, but would you agree with this as a possible way forward for other young women who are suffering with issues around their bodies and rejecting womanhood?

Our sex is simply something we are born with, in the same way as any other attribute that we are born with. If someone is born with a disability that can't be fixed, isn't it better to come to terms with it and find a way to live despite that disability? Since sex can't be changed, wouldn't it be better to come to terms with your sex rather than insist you're not that sex?