Use of "cis"

[notwokeup]

What are your opinions on the use of cis? I have to say I hate it. It feels like an unnecessary prefix to me.

However, a young trans woman has just started at my work, and insists on referring to cis women (rarely cis men). Because of the work, I am loathe to say anything as I know that I would be in trouble. I have no problem using their preferred pronouns she/her, and she is a lovely person, although young (20) and quite naive. Yet I cringe every time she refers to women as cis.

I was sooooo trans in the 1980s.

You're only cis if you identify as cis.
That label can't be forced upon us.

Thats too logical though. Bigot.

I could identify as a horse but it doesn't make it a fact.

The problem is that as a trans woman, she is of the opinion that trans women are women. So, to have a label for these two kinds of women seems eminently reasonable from her point of view. If you insist on "transwomen and women", they you are implying what you believe - that transwomen are not women. So objecting to cis woman is equivalent to saying "you are not a woman." So, you have to be hellishly careful, or you will be labelled transphobic.

One weaselly workaround is to ask to be called a "non-transwomen". In your head it will be "non-transwomen" in hers "non- trans women."

I've yet to find any form of words at all which doesn't irritate one side or the other, and would love someone to come up with something acceptable to both sides, as otherwise any conversation between the two groups devolves immediately into TWAW vs TWAM.

and would love someone to come up with something acceptable to both sides

Well, women and transwomen works well for the huge majority it seems. Transsexual women are fine with this on the whole. Its only TRA/MRA types that kick off about the distinction being made between actual women and male women. You even get militant TRA types claiming they are 'biological women' and cis women

'Non-transwoman' is as objectionable as 'non-men'.

Sorry, but there isn't going to be a solution which everyone is happy with. Women are women, adult human females. Females are defined by our biology.

No one has ever provided a sensible, non-circular definition of 'woman' for which 'transwomen are women' is true (even for the most narrow definitions of 'transwomen')

So, you have to be hellishly careful, or you will be labelled transphobic.

Oh the horror.

Male people don't seem to be hellishly careful about avoiding been labelled misogynists.

As an aside, in southern african slang the homonym 'Sis' is an expression of disgust, and because of this I can't use the term 'cis' at all comfortably.

Is 'cis' a term preferred by trans speakers alone now?

They had to stop saying transsexuals because the new generation often doesn't have any surgery at all. My spouse doesn't, but got a legal transition and gender change on ID, legal protections, etc. No medical work done AT ALL.

Oldermum It's a mind bender to think how the requirements of what constitutes trans have become so relaxed as to be meaningless, and at the same time the claims to words and concepts have become more extreme.
One of my problems with the word 'transwoman' is the way it implies that the sexual orientation of the trans person's spouse has changed. I don't mean to assume anything about you personally, but it just seems like such an unfair extra burden on women who struggle with their spouse's 'transition'.

I actually prefer the term 'transgender' to 'transsexual' as it is more accurate. One cannot change sex, no matter how much surgery one has.

I do too, Female. The problem is, it doesn't mean anything. Eddie Izzard is "transgender".

'Transgender' is not a word I would use to describe Eddie Izzard. Words that spring to mind are: wazzock, tosser, man, etc.

It's a term so broad as to be devoid of useful meaning.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/transgenderbooklett_2004.pdf

I refer you to the last bullet point on p5 of this stonewall booklet. (I think this booklet may be a few years old so quite possibly breaks some of today's language rules...)

ZuttZeVootEeeVro I'm concerned the OP will get into trouble at work, which is what she is trying to avoid.

Vixxxy

Well, women and transwomen works well for the huge majority it seems. Transsexual women are fine with this on the whole. Its only TRA/MRA types that kick off about the distinction being made between actual women and male women. You even get militant TRA types claiming they are 'biological women' and cis women hmm

It's quite widely used, for example, in the NHS:
gids.nhs.uk/glossary

I guess you've taken a step further than most and acknowledge that transwomen are women, even if they are male women!

It's a mind bender to think how the requirements of what constitutes trans have become so relaxed as to be meaningless, and at the same time the claims to words and concepts have become more extreme.

The original GRA was brought in because of a transwoman who wanted to marry her male partner, and didn't want to be 'outed' at work by an NI number which identified her as male.This transwoman had had surgery and gone as far as it was possible to go to 'live as a woman'.

We now have a situation where it's become a choice whether to be recognised as male or female. So we've moved from the exceptional circumstances of someone who has had genital surgery to be recognised as their 'acquired gender', to it being against people's human rights to expect them to have surgery in order to be recognised as their chosen sex.

While we are on language- what is this -"Are valid" phase that crops up.

Non binary are valid???!!!

Really don't understand that. Cis I get ... don't like it but understand it.

Valid... not sure and I'm a bit reluctant to ask case I get done by the woke-Stazi as I work in Woke-vill.

Crone Yes, piecemeal legislation is the root of the problem. And here we are, xx years later, pondering whether OP should accept a new label for 'woman' to avoid being labelled a transphobe.

I guess you've taken a step further than most and acknowledge that transwomen are women, even if they are male women!

Erm, well not really. But not arsed about transwomen calling themselves transwomen.

If we 'acknowledge' that 'male women' exist, I would love to know the actual definition of 'woman'? What is a woman, if both male and female people can be it? Hmm.

Are valid

This is one of the most overused phrases at the moment and for ages I just didn't understand. I think they are meaning that they are "acceptable" or "reasonable".

It's not just used for non-binary, it's used for basically everything. All your feelings are "valid" etc.

It really bugs me because people seem to replace community values such as fighting for material equality with individual "validation" movements where everybody is just so darn valid. I don't see how it is impacting the world in any real way.

Plus it makes me think of "validating" a parking ticket.

there isn't going to be a solution which everyone is happy with. Women are women, adult human females. Females are defined by our biology

Perhaps not happy, but if/when doctors and politicians return to the place we were a few years ago, when it was fully understood that nobody could change sex, then transwomen might learn to live with reality again. Then we can all sigh with relief and this cis nonsense be relegated to history.

Gudrun said

"As an aside, in southern african slang the homonym 'Sis' is an expression of disgust, and because of this I can't use the term 'cis' at all comfortably. "

This is a really good point -

This "movement" is vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvwhite, western etc I'd go as far as saying USA Canada it makes "sense" in their cultures maybe (in a sort of mid point between patiarchy-max and northern european - style)

Certainly they aren't checking that their new terms are acceptable out of, guessing, USA.

then transwomen might learn to live with reality again.

My perception is that many of the dysphoric transwomen do live with reality (the ones who still call themselves transsexual and/or acknowledge they are male) but that a lot of the recent 'transgender women' depend entirely on fantasy for their 'identity'.