Opting out of trans and LGB lessons

[SparklySneakers]

My daughter is objecting to her school making her do LGBT sessions this month. She does not want to go to school for that week. She doesn't see why she has to learn about it, believes you can love whoever you want to love, be whoever you want to be but that you can't change sex.
Can see object or rather me on her behalf? Or maybe a better question is how I can get her to make the most of these sessions.

Think PPs have answered your question for me excellently.

Dd's sister who was 9 at the time came home from school to say a school friend had told her men could have babies. She soon put them straight on that one. No science deniers in this family. Even ds knew at 3 that he was a boy because he had a penis.

I like the idea of her taking notes. I'm sure she's on the spectrum though and what is said is often not what she hears so will be difficult to get anything from her that actually was said rather than what she interpreted.

I wonder if school would provide any further information on the actual content.

I like the idea of the 3 things too. That one is more achievable for her I think.

It just pisses me off so much that this subject is being pushed at them so young. LGB yes, fine and good and necessary. But trans? No. It's bollox and they know it. Why is it included under sex ex rather than mental health if they are discussing gender dysphoria?

Maybe I'll encourage her to come up with some difficult questions
so miss, are you saying that we can biologically change sex?

How does that work then?

What if we change our mind?

Could it be reversed?

How would a trans woman get pregnant seeing as they wouldn't have a uterus or any of the biologically necessary parts and systems to support a pregnancy?

Do you think it's ethical sir to give children hormones than render them infertile before they have fully developed brains and know who they really are?

My mum didn't figure out who she and make peace with herself was until she was 40 miss, what would have happened if she'd have decided she was really a boy when she was 12? Then realised later she was just rebelling against gender stereotypes?

What do you mean by gender sir?

Miss, do you think we are defined by societal stereotypes or is who we are down to personality?

Sir, if I decide I'm a boy and not a girl, how do I decide who I fancy? What if I fancy boys and girls?

Miss? Sir? I'm confused. What's autogynaephilia?

If I'm a girl and I fancy girls I'm a lesbian. If I'm a boy and fancy boys I'm gay. If I fancy both I'm bi. If I fancy the opposite sex then I'm heterosexual. Got it. Easy enough.

If I like motorbikes and heavy metal does that mean I'm really a boy?

My brother likes watching barbie with us, does that make him trans?

My sister wants to be a horse. Can we change species as well as sex?

Oooh we could have lots of fun with this. Wonder if I can attend school that week

Sorry, got a bit carried away there!

Oooh interesting posts ForumGirl thank you. so that would be relevant to the Moffat v Birmingham parents fiasco?

What about the government not wanting parents to be able to withdraw their kids from sex Ed post 2020?

"and I can just tell your child anything I want to".

That sounds like it warrants a formal complaint or even a daily mail sad face.

I wonder if school would provide any further information on the actual content.

If they don’t, formal complaint.

I am LOVING the questions!

Lol sparkly!

That's a point I've not understood about that Birmingham case; there's always a kid sitting outside assembly kicking their heels while flicking through a book. I understood you could withdraw from things like this.

I taught sex Ed to y4 and one Muslim family only came to the evening parent chat about it. The deputy head explained it was essentially child protection (knowing who couldn't touch private parts, consent etc) plus that their child might find out second hand in the yard. They could have withdrawn her but chose not to.

I think your child has the concerns that she has about attending these sessions because she's picking up on how you feel about it. Could she be trying to not upset you? It's probably best to let her ask her own questions if she has any. And asking her to take notes, all 12 year olds I know would be mortified.

EyesAreNeverClosing I knew nothing about these sessions until she first came home saying she didn't want to go that week. I think she should go, listen to all the guff, then come home and tell me all about it so we can pick it all apart and apply some critical thinking in a safe place where no one can accuse her of being transphobic for saying you can't change sex.

SparklySneakers

That's probably best. I also just wouldn't make a big thing of them. My kids often can't remember what they've done in 6 hours of lessons apparently let alone in a half hour talk in assembly which is likely to be at the start of the day. Most kids are ok with talks like these and just take the bits they want from them. If, and its a big if, they are told that people can change sex, then she can either challenge it or not. Schools are just trying to teach that some people have struggles and deserve understanding. My children know that you can't change your chromosomes but they think that if a boy want to be known as a girl then that's ok.

Hey sparkly,

When I read your OP I thought "she's autistic" about your dd because i recognised myself in how you described her refusal to take part and i think it could be a spectrum thing that people don't always 'get'.

When something is illogical or irrational or plainly wrong to our mind, and we have thought about the issue a lot, there is a certain sort of anger/rage/fear that comes from people with power saying the illogical/irrational/wrong thing as though it were a fact. This anger can result in black and white and refusal to engage because it is so very uncomfortable to engage with something we find so incorrect and potentially harmful. This overwhelming feeling can also be made ten times worse if we know that to give our reasonable opinion would result in more untrue things being said - such as that we are transphobic..!

If she is on the spectrum, this is an autistic nightmare: having to interact with people who are saying such incorrect things and not being able to name them as incorrect.

I would want to skip school, too!

The proud trust is the main charity.

I think Stephen Whittle & Christine Burns are patrons of this Manchester Charity.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3436955-Stephen-Whittle

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3324578-Vunerabilities-of-Looked-After-Children-Social-Work-CP-restricted-by-affirmation-requirement-Trans-Youth-in-Care-Toolkit

Chritine Burns lecture at Jane Fae's TRA conference, 'We're Still Here'
OP TheHarpySings report:
(extract)
"5) HOW THE GRA WAS WON

This was a lecture by Christine Burns of Press for Change

CB cited a lot of case law.

One which is relevant to our interests is that of a trans man called Mark Reece (sp?) who wanted to be a vicar and also marry a woman (this was pre female clergy or same sex marriage)

Reece took his care to the ECHR and lost but it brought attention to the case and Alex Carlyle advised Reece.

They recommended tying to find the “lever” to force the Govt to do something. To chip away at laws which are discriminatory.

They are looking for good test cases.

Burns said that the TRAs need to make themselves the legislators friend. Apparently pre GRA 2004 there was an inter-departmental working group set up in Government to look at the issue and produce a report. Press for Change (CB’s org) wrote the report and the government basically just used that (!). This was 2000 - 2001 time- wonder if we can dig this up?

Anyway,, the GRA 2004 was not what the trans rights group wanted as they had to make concessions on things like medical evidence for a GRC."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

recent lecture by Christine Burns in Cambridge:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3526342-Flashback-and-backlash

see also Press For Change which both Burns & Whittle have been key members:
[[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3375587-Press-for-Change]]

See also Proud Trust re allegations concerning Jess Bradley.
Popchyk wrote,
"And an article written by Bradley's estranged wife:

www.sarahmcculloch.com/statement-jess-bradley/

Provides a lot of background and confirms that Action for Trans Health received a report of sexual assault and a further six reports of sexual misconduct of Jess Bradley.
www.sarahmcculloch.com/statement-jess-bradley/

"With ATH and NUS seemingly compromised, there is a third organisation conducting an investigation, the Proud Trust, an LGBT youth charity in Manchester who run the LGBT centre in Sidney Street among other things. I have spoken to them on the phone and they have said there are a number of safeguarding concerns which have been raised and they are receiving disclosures from any individuals who will be treated with confidence and respect, supported if they wanted the police involved but otherwise nothing will happen without the consent of the individuals involved unless they were under 18 at the time as they will have a statutory duty to disclose this".

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520762-Jess-Bradley-government-advisor-and-suspended-NUS-Trans-Officer-Part-iv

That sounds like it warrants a formal complaint or even a daily mail sad face.
I have some public facing stuff for work which means I can't be "parent in the media with a sad face". But we're already on an informal complaint and when life is a bit quieter (ha!) I will be proceeding to a formal complaint.

I knew nothing about these sessions until she first came home saying she didn't want to go that week.

That's what happened to us. I knew nothing until the mum of the likes-pink-boy posted publicly on FB that her child "was now much happier because of being a girl at school" whatever that means - wearing pinafore dresses, is all I can see that's different. I asked my DC in the child's year and a couple of other parents and was told yes, they'd all been sat down and told this.

I asked my DC in the child's year and a couple of other parents and was told yes, they'd all been sat down and told this.

Perents have a right to know what their children are told/taught by teachers.

There is substantial difference between being told about the importance of recognising the differences amongst other pupils and preventing bullying etc as opposed to potentially teaching young children an ideological belief that boys can become girls and girls can become boys.

Thanks as always for you posts R0wan even if some of them have caused a bit of sick in my mouth

RepealTheGRA that would never be my intention!

www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/relationships/lgbt-lessons-fking-excellent-compared-to-maths-say-children-20190308183315
Sorry

I think Stephen Whittle & Christine Burns are patrons of this Manchester Charity

It was this that caused the sick.

I can’t work out with this pair if I think they have deliberately malicious intentions towards children or if they’re just so narcissistic they don’t consider how their actions are impacting others.

I can’t work out with this pair if I think they have deliberately malicious intentions towards children or if they’re just so narcissistic they don’t consider how their actions are impacting others

They, along with many influential trans-activists, dont understand Safeguarding.

This means that frameworks intended to protect children and vulnerable adults are being damaged.

It is a systemic failure.

I can't open those links for some reason. Who are those 2 patrons?

If she decides she does want to ask questions, I would be careful about ensuring you go over them with her and steer her away from anything that might come across as deliberately goady.

If she has a diagnosis at school then asking about the concern that a third of those presenting with gender dysphoria at GIDS and how the school intends to protect autistic children from being pushed down a path that could lead to infertility when so little was known about why autistic children were suddenly presenting in large numbers might be a good one for her (assuming you're OK with her knowing about that).

Asking for a definition of gender and a definition of sex and why gender dysphoria is treated by changing everyone's definitions of what it means to be male and female when all other forms of body dysphoria are treated as mental health conditions for the individual.

Asking why we have separate areas for boys and girls to change in/sleep in if the only difference between a boy and girl is a feeling that they are one?

If she is old enough and brave enough, bringing up Stonewall's definition of trans women as including men who dress as women for sexual gratification and asking what the school will do to protect girls from that form of sexual harassment.

If sport inclusion is brought up, asking what the school will do to ensure a level playing field as Martina Navratilova, Sharon Davies et. al have been discussing in the media - especially given the chronic drop out rates for girls and sports participation as they hit puberty.

If toilets are brought up ask what the school is doing to ensure their legal obligations to provide single-sex toilets is met. (You may need to prime her on the difference between having a GRC and just self-IDin as trans).

Ask what the school's impact assessment found about the impact of these policies on the sex classes of girls and boys, of those with religious beliefs and on people with disabilities, and how they went about working that out. If they say "it doesn't impact" ask if that is in their impact assessment and how did they come to that conclusion.

Good points Boom. They have shared toilets at school and shared sinks. HT said was like that before he was at the school so no impact assessment done. She can get a special pass to use the loo in lesson time or use the disabled if she wants instead of refusing to go all day.

If she is on the spectrum, this is an autistic nightmare: having to interact with people who are saying such incorrect things and not being able to name them as incorrect.

I second this. Not autistic myself, but teen daughter and husband are. We got some... interesting feedback from DD RE teacher! She cannot handle what she says are ‘lies’ or things stated as fact that are not. She will argue and argue and argue. If a teacher ever tried to tell her humans can change sex, well I would almost pity them. She’s also very bright and articulate, and gender non-conforming, so you can imagine how this sort of shit goes down with her!

The school toilet thing isn't so much about the impact assessment as a legal obligation to have single-sex toilet and washing facilities. An impact assessment wouldn't be a way out of that obligation.

If the school has no impact assessment on file for other policies that infringe on previously sex-segregated areas, could they be challenged to remedy their error rather than compounding it by continuing to ignore their legal obligations?

These are probably more areas for you if you feel up to it, bit heavy for a 12 year old! Can you run for governor?

I had a reply from HT. She can opt out of assembly and tutor period but no guarantees that there won't be LGBTQ+ content in other sessions throughout the week. I'm encouraging her to go and ask questions. She's asked me to write some down to ask but I'll get her to do her own.

I'm not happy with the TQ+ aspect at all.

If she is on the spectrum, this is an autistic nightmare: having to interact with people who are saying such incorrect things and not being able to name them as incorrect.

I’m not autistic (although it runs strongly in my family) but I recognise this. It’s something I think of as *an offence against rightness^ and it got me into an awful lot of trouble in my own schooldays :(

For someone on the spectrum it must be a nightmare