There are genuine transgender people - but they are quiet.

[andyoldlabour]

I found this on KF, and it shows that there are transgender people with empathy, who do not agree with the way very masculine transgender people are treating women.
It came as a surprise to me, but also was very heartening.
If they were all like this person then there wouldn't be any problems, so it has confirmed my beliefs that certain people are not really transgender but using it for their own nefarious reasons.

twitter.com/kinesis/status/1062885504541110272

And some people genuinely can’t have trans medical/surgical interventions due to other non-related health conditions. No one should have to risk their life to access a toilet.

Much better to divide on biological sex, as determined at conception, and then provide additional 3rd, entirely private, single user facilities for when nudity/partial nudity is unavoidable, for the people who aren’t comfortable using the facilities provided for their birth sex. This provides for non-binary types too, whereas simply allowing trans people to use the opposite facilities does not.

That's the bit that took me longest! I know post surgery trans individuals, have just been to the wedding of 2 good friends, one a transman the other a straight woman. I wouldn't dream of treating him as anything other than 'him'.

But my tranny mate, who I have known since we were in our teens? He can fuck off with his pretty frock if he tried to come into the ladies loo! Not that he would as he is most definitely a man in a frock, out and out tranny for decades, he acknowledges his fetish for what it is, always has!

The cognitive dissonance is really hard to deal with! I KNOW the people in my life, LGBTQ whatever. That's why I was an ally for so long. It is also why my change of heart has been so fucking difficult, and that's before the high profile stories came out .

Once that genie is out of the bottle....

I (possibly because I'm socialised as a woman?) hate conflict and contradictions and people having entrenched opinions. I disengage from the more 'robust' discussions, where people analyse each other's every word and metaphorically speaking push and shove to get their point across. I don't like telling people they are wrong (or being told I'm wrong). I prefer to offer a different way of looking at things and let people come to their own conclusions. I'm an educator, mainly having worked with traumatised children. When emotions are intense, when people feel threatened (whether the threat is real or imagined), they cannot use higher reasoning.

Sorry for being long winded. I'm working this out on the hoof.

I want to talk to people like TSnTG. Whenever a conversation starts, people react to the 'trigger phrases' TSNTG uses, it gets heated and people like TSnTG jump ship. They feel attacked, which feeds the mythology that MN is full of unreasonable trans hating bigots.

It feels as though we're trapped in a cycle of unreasonableness. TSnTG came on this thread because OP was wondering where the 'quiet transexuals' are. If they had posted their own thread, as some foolhardy souls have, they'd be accused of 'me me me, oh look a man has entered the room to tell us how to do it'. Very hard line to tread, I think.

Sorry for being long winded. I'm working this out on the hoof. Don't apologisew! I spoted very simialr ly a while ago. Some very nice (lud, robust, determined) posters discussed it with me for as long as I wanted to engage. It was quite a disturbing process but easier because of the input I had.

Come on, we can't scream about the stupidity of TRAs saying 'no debate' and then do the same in reverse. There is a debate here - we've been asking and pushing for one. TSNTG was/is offering a debate from a far more reasoned starting point than the TRAs - shouting them down for not echoing our views is poor strategy.

Whenever a conversation starts, people react to the 'trigger phrases' TSNTG uses, it gets heated and people like TSnTG jump ship. They feel attacked, which feeds the mythology that MN is full of unreasonable trans hating bigots. Yep! And we, women, often feel obliged to apologise for that. Except here, where many have decided that we won't as we are not at fault, not to blame, not being nasty. Simply not apologising for A N Others feelings.

It is a cycle of unreasonableness. If you read my posts, and those of many others, you will see many women acknowledge that they are being unreasonable, they simply won't take a step towards TWAW.

But if you look for a TW saying the same thing you probably won't find m/any at all. Mirand Yardley et al are few and far between. Most TWs who post here try to explain why they are different, should be accpeted. They feel threatened when women won't agree. Some threat!

I too was an educator, but I won't treat TW as damaged children (That probably sounds like a sneer, it isn't intended as such) they can stand on their own 2 feet and debate back.

My previous post was a bit nit picky, I just wanted to be sure I had addressed all of your pooitns, wasn't trying to nit pick!

Talking of socialisation... I had to remove 3 "sorrys" from that!

Who shouted, Penguin?

TSNTG was aksed a question and chose to say they felt they couldn't engage. Many women here feel they are being pushed into a corner, but still choose to engage! It is uncomfortable. But until both sides have that uncomfortable discussion we can't get any further.

Unless of course you mean that we women should just be nice so TSNTG can have their say, unchecked? Where would that get us?

Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm a little bit at a thread like this in the first place. This isn't a 'trans board', it's 'feminism and women's rights'. There are a few transsexuals who already post here, and the reason they are welcomed is because they don't put themselves front and centre.

There have been many threads over the past few years that have been effusively thanking trans males for being decent sorts who dont necessarily stomp over women, and it does seem to be a pattern of everything is fine as long as lots of dmoji flowers are doled out and particular questions are not pressed. I think that is really inappropriate here.

I understand the impetus of wanting to ask questions of trans males who post, in an effort to understand why they feel that they are the exception to the boundaries women set, but if their response to those questions is high dudgeon then I think it is profoundly anti-woman to tell the women who asked the questions that they should have been nicer and more respectful. Please, think about what you're saying when you do that.

It feels as though we're trapped in a cycle of unreasonableness. TSnTG came on this thread because OP was wondering where the 'quiet transexuals' are

And then proceeded to show us that the “quiet transsexuals” are quietly ignoring boundaries, using women’s spaces because they feel entitled to them, refusing to answer direct questions because they know it will show them to be as entitled as the TRAs they desperately try to distance themselves from.

There is no meaningful distinction between transsexual and transgender. As long as we continue to say there is women’s spaces, sports, even our very definitions are lost.

I’ve rather come to agree with the TRAs of late though. There is no debate. Ultimately this whole thing comes down to which men can become women - and the answer is none. There’s no debate to be had around that. Much as there’s no debate about which tigers can become lions, which parrotfish can become sharks or which geckos can become toads.

It feels as though we're trapped in a cycle of unreasonableness.

You are framing the accurate description of dominating/abusive male patterns of interaction and behaviour as "unreasonable" on the part of women.

I see that as unreasonable. Outrageously unreasonable. Seriously. I'm not joking. Who are you to patrol women speaking? This is more unreasonable to me than the entirely predictable reactions of the male person on this thread.

Nobody is required to speak in a way that does not make you feel uncomfortable - it's a feminist forum, FFS.

There is a debate here - we've been asking and pushing for one.

You might have but I haven't.

I've been advocating for women and girls and child protection. I've been advocating for single sex spaces and services to be preserved and for child safeguarding not to be bulldozed.

Honestly, I dont blame TSNTG for being reluctant to answer a question. The question being asked always ends up in an argument. Whilst the answer they gave may not have been what we wanted to hear lets not forget they did say they dont use toilets or changing rooms and their point about breast screening was an interesting one I had never considered.

At the end up the day all have us have dug into our positions,rightly or wrongly. We see certain things and instantly get triggered and assume the worst. Of course there are fred in a frock assholes and plenty of them , probably the majority but we know they are those who want discussion.

How can we move forward if everytime someone from the "other side" comes forward and we shoot them down ? Looks like TSNTG has left and thats a shame.

This is nothing to do with trans rights, womens rights etc.. This is simply about listening and taking on board whats being said.

Fred is a dress and his tranny mates and Jonny who gets off on womens changing rooms can all go do one but do we really have to sacrifice the transsexual people out there or is there a happy medium ?

I’ve rather come to agree with the TRAs of late though. There is no debate. Ultimately this whole thing comes down to which men can become women - and the answer is none. There’s no debate to be had around that. Much as there’s no debate about which tigers can become lions, which parrotfish can become sharks or which geckos can become toads.

Sweary calls it.

After years and years of thinking and reading and discussing, this is where I've arrived.

Honestly, I dont blame TSNTG for being reluctant to answer a question. I do! They came on here for a reason... they chose to leave when posters refused to give them a platform to do so unchecked.

This is nothing to do with trans rights, womens rights etc.. This is simply about listening and taking on board whats being said. You mean depsote this being FWR we still have to sit quietly and listen to the men?

Nope! And the more of that excusercising I read the more I swing towards LangCLeg's flat out "Fuck Off!" position.

I can see what you're saying but I think the debate to be had is in it being heard that safeguarding and women's rights are important and cannot be ignored.

Much like the sports issue of late, the debate is a reframing of this issue from "how can we protect the feelings of trans people" to "how can we protect the rights of women" and I can't see how institutions and organisations will change their stance without public discourse highlighting that women and girls have been completed disregarded in this conversation.

I agree that the line of sex segregation along sex is key to this, but when lobby groups have changed so much without scrutiny, the debate is needed to shine a spotlight on how only one small group of people have been considered and 51% of the population has been ignored.

I'm not 'sacrificing' anyone. Why should women be ever so grateful that one male accepts their boundary about toilets and changing rooms but is happy to ignore another one? Why would anyone feel the need to let that slide to hear yet more from a male person about how they feel? Its not about getting the answers we want to hear. Its about being resolute in pointing out that someone is not actually being as 'respectful' as they are claiming they are.

It's interesting (genuinely, not being sarky) how posters latch on to the OP's idea of 'genuine' trans and spend the thread defending a TS who presented themselves as an 'ally'. And nobody seems to be uncomfortable with the idea that quiet, undemanding trans people should be given the 'genuine' label.

It's about rights, not ranking people by niceness.

*There is a debate here - we've been asking and pushing for one.

You might have but I haven't.*

Thats fine but you dont speak for me.

Agree or not there NEEDS to be debate. What does it acheive when you dig in ? All that happens is that you get accused of being an hysterical woman by men and ignored.

Too many people are arguing for a position that makes us look unreasonable. Some want the Equality Act scrapped, Gender Recognition scrapped and no rights at all for trans people because they are "men in dresses". Wheres the starting position for any debate ..... concede everything and then we accept you ?

We have fought hard for womens rights. Many men arent happy about it but tough shit. They are here to stay and noone is going to touch them and if anyone even hinted at anything that rolled back those rights there would be WW3.

We dont like it but right now transpeople have rights. Granted what they are pushing for now is ridiculous and I am against it but if we look to remove what is there is that really the precedent we want to set ? Do we want groups taking back rights ? The old argument "it was fine 10 years ago but now theyve gone too far so we have to stop it" is all very well but if it was the other way round how would we feel if it was men saying it about women.

As the old saying goes you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Why cant we start getting the reasonable ones onside ?

Why cant we start getting the reasonable ones onside?

Lolololol. How does that work, then? I mean, apart from the fact that lots of women here have been speaking, debating and persuading people for years now and your suggestion of being nicer is really misplaced?

How do.you suggest we get people 'onside' if we don't point out that they are actually perpetuating the problem of ignoring women's boundaries?

What does it acheive when you dig in ? All that happens is that you get accused of being an hysterical woman by men and ignored. That's kind of the whole point, right there, in so few words. Men have opinions, women are hysterical!

We dont like it but right now transpeople have rights I think you'll find that even LangCleg would agree that they do indeed have rights. Nobody wants to take them away... that's one of the TRA myths, don't fall for it!

Women are NOT taking back rights, Just reasserting the rights they have fought for - and men do indeed still disagree. or have you not read the "Well women wanted equality" style comments in newspapers, twitter etc?

I don't want to catch flies. I want to continue to feel safe in female only sapces, to be a woman, to be untrammelled by uberPC shite!

Thats fine but you dont speak for me.

Why do you think I am? Like I say, you are new to FWR. Perhaps you should read around a bit and get a feel for the pro-woman discourse that goes on here?

As the old saying goes you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

This is anti-feminist.

They are here to stay and noone is going to touch them and if anyone even hinted at anything that rolled back those rights there would be WW3.

Where the goodness have you been (while not posting on FWR)? This time two years ago, reform of the GRA and the total eradication of all women's rights was an absolute done deal. Did you not notice the WW3 carried out by the feminists you're now disparaging that ensured this did not happen?

Why cant we start getting the reasonable ones onside Because when we say something like, yes but you are still asserting your right to ignore the feelings of women, they disappear, as TSNTG did!

do we really have to sacrifice the transsexual people out there

Sacrifice? Really? There’s no need for such dramatic hyperbole. Although if you want to play that game do we really have to sacrifice all the women out there?

This is all such bollocks. Humans can’t change sex. Women and girls have specific protections due to the physical difference between us and men and the behaviour of men towards women. Anyone male, regardless of their surgery and hormone regime has no business accessing anything set aside for women. Make the fucking men make space for them.

Make the fucking men make space for them.

A-fucking-men to that.

Not all breast screening is in female only spaces though. My mammogram clinic letter just says you can bring one friend or relative to accompany you.

The only ones that are female only are the ones in tiny spaces, portocabins and the like, where women have to emerge from the scanning room straight into the waiting room, with no vestibule space to change in.