There are genuine transgender people - but they are quiet.

[andyoldlabour]

I found this on KF, and it shows that there are transgender people with empathy, who do not agree with the way very masculine transgender people are treating women.
It came as a surprise to me, but also was very heartening.
If they were all like this person then there wouldn't be any problems, so it has confirmed my beliefs that certain people are not really transgender but using it for their own nefarious reasons.

twitter.com/kinesis/status/1062885504541110272

This may be controversial but I see TRA/modern TG agenda as a common enemy of both women and transsexuals. I know some feel that TG and TS are still biologically male and therefore further distinction is irrelevant.

The most prominant lobbyists for policies and legislation which have and are continuing to inform the 'agenda' are TS though.
In the Uk the founders of Press For Change eg Stephen Whittle, Christine Burns, see also James Morton in Scotland, Sarah Brown Stonewall and Lib Dems, prison policy changed due to appeal by Karen Jones etc etc

Its not possible, however much wished for to draw a credibility line between TS and TG any more than past and present.

There are individuals who have choices aboout where they decide to use their influence and for what purpose.

There has been a steady stream of TS who are seeking to make women 'allied' to their cause.

my need for sex segregation doesn't disappear because either of those people exist.

Mine neither but equally i cant deny that these people exist.

What is an alternative gender identity?

Transition means whatever the utterer wants it to mean.

Most surgeries are breast implants or facial cosmetic surgeries.

If you mean "male person without a penis" - how do you propose a demarcation of such that could possibly work in any social context?

And do you think you have the right to consent on behalf of women who do not?

Mine neither but equally i cant deny that these people exist.

And nobody is denying that they exist.

I would have been interested to see that discussion go farther.

And the reason you didn't is because the very second non-compliance by women arrived to the thread, there was an explosion of outrage and demands for the performing of female socialisation.

Which is the bloody problem.

No is a complete sentence, not the beginning of a negotiation.

I use a ladies gym.

It is only permitted to exist due to a significantly sized local Islamic community. It is a ‘proportionate means to a legitimate aim’ the aim being promoting health and fitness amongst a community (Muslim women) unable to use the mixed sex facilities on offer.

If a trans identified male were to start using it, a significant proportion of current uses would stop using it. If the facility no longer achieved it’s ‘legitimate aim’ it’s existence would no longer be justified, neither in legal, nor commercial terms.

It would be nice for the conversation to last a bit longer...

There's a tendency to behave as though the existence of transsexual people threatens women's rights. That's problematic.

Perhaps if you are suspicious of a trans person posting, you could sit back and wait a while before piling on.

Oops that moved faster than I read.

They’re not being asked in a manner where they’re free to express their true feelings. They’re being asked to agree to a fait accompli.

When I see this nonsense, I always think - bet you a million squid no women were allowed an anonymous ballot about this.

Perhaps if you are suspicious of a trans person posting, you could sit back and wait a while before piling on.

I asked a straightforward question and then observed the content and tone of the response before commenting further.

That sufficiently compliant for you?

According to the human rights commission

a service provider provides single-sex services. If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your acquired gender. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment

So the ladies only gym above appears to be correct in treating a trans woman according to their acquired gender.

Perhaps if you are suspicious of a trans person posting, you could sit back and wait a while before piling on

TSnTG refused to respond to a reasonable question quite rudely early on, thus showing they aren’t interested in looking out for women’s rights. This is feminism chat not transgender rights chat so women’s rights are the important bit.

They then behaved like every other “I’m a transsexual, you can’t possibly mean little old me when you talk about trans rights activists” in trying to get women to validate their special status. It happens every time.

Autogynephiles get off on being accepted and validated by women. And too many have tried to seek that validation on FWR and then got manipulative when women say no or even ask questions.

The very first thing TSNTG posted in this thread was a complaint about the women of Mumsnet not being friendly/welcoming/kind enough:

I was on Mumsnet a while ago as were several friends of mine but we all left because we felt attacked.

This is not okay. Perhaps they didn’t mean for it to sound so manipulative, but that’s exactly how it comes across.

It's not a pile on. This is a discussion board, not a hive mind. It's also a feminist board which means prioritising women and girls.

I totally get it, I've been very guilty of doing the same thing myself.

"How dare you tell women to be politer or nicer or less angry. This is enraging, we are allowed to be angry. I will not placate men who are part of a movement which is removing my rights.*

By all means be angry. But then noone gets to complain why genuine transgender people are being quiet. If you want them to speak lets at least hear what they have to say.

Passtheknitting what is a genuine transgender person? How do you tell them apart from fake transgender people or people who accept their sex cannot change?

If you want them to speak lets at least hear what they have to say.

I did. Opening post contained manipulation.

Asked question.

Response contained outrage at perceived non-compliance and demands for me to perform female socialisation.

I know all I need to know from that, thanks.

what is a genuine transgender person? How do you tell them apart from fake transgender people or people who accept their sex cannot change?

I get it and I agree you cant. But that doesnt mean I think they are all as bad as each other. Some do seem to want to be genuine allies and I want to hear what they have to say. Of course I dont want myself or my kids sharing a space with some entitled male with a fetish.

Honestly the way every word they said on here is being analysed seems strange. It doesnt happen to anyone else.

Wow manipulation. I certainly dont see it. Maybe clumsily worded but we all know how dangerous a typed medium without knowing fhe person, their intent or their emotional response can be. Personally i give them the benefit of the doubt for now....

It doesnt happen to anyone else.

You're very new to FWR. Perhaps you haven't been around long enough to notice the centring of women that goes on here?

But TSnTG was asked a very simple question about alliance (I don’t want to call it that but brain on go slow) by Lang. She asked about their use of women’s spaces and TSnTG refused to answer. That’s not the action of an ally. They went on to explain the circumstances where they entered women’s spaces because they felt entitled. That’s not being an ally to women.

The friends who have been here before behaved In very similar ways. Expecting huge amounts of praise for not being horrendous humans, taking the piss out of us on angels whilst pretending to be friends, special pleading for their inclusion where all others should be left out, a refusal to accept the boundaries women have laid out, an insistence that they have permission/all women are comfortable with their presence. It played out in three posts on this thread.