There are genuine transgender people - but they are quiet.

[andyoldlabour]

I found this on KF, and it shows that there are transgender people with empathy, who do not agree with the way very masculine transgender people are treating women.
It came as a surprise to me, but also was very heartening.
If they were all like this person then there wouldn't be any problems, so it has confirmed my beliefs that certain people are not really transgender but using it for their own nefarious reasons.

twitter.com/kinesis/status/1062885504541110272

I will agree to disagree. I dont think they got a fair hearing.

Wow manipulation. I certainly dont see it. Maybe clumsily worded but we all know how dangerous a typed medium without knowing fhe person, their intent or their emotional response can be. Personally i give them the benefit of the doubt for now....

Once you start noticing the demands for women to be kind it becomes painfully obvious. And yes, it absolutely often is a manipulative attempt to use women’s socialisation against them. Even if it isn’t conscious. Women say no. End of.

A gender neutral third space is probably the best option, with the proviso that sex-segregated spaces are retained alongside those third space to ensure the safety of children and women. yep, and transsexuals need to campaign alongside women for these. I'd be happy to campaign on this, the TRAs don't want this though, which tells you a lot about their motivations.

Miranda doesn't use womens spaces at all, no exceptions, because he's concluded that's the only logical and honourable thing to do, and has written eloquently and clearly about why this is. He is an example of a transsexual exhibiting genuine respect for Womens and girls boundaries of and empathy with women and girls.

Young girls, especially those going through puberty and starting menstruation, don't want to share with male bodied people, and I really don't see however many arguments are made why girls should have to give up their privacy, dignity and safety for transsexuals. As soon as you get into exceptions to single sex, that's what you're asking for.

Women did not ask for this fight. We did it go out on a “trans hunt.” We did not complain when a small number of transwomen were using our spaces, even though some of us may have felt discomfort or even threatened. We did what women are trained from birth to do: we accepted that the needs of males outweighed our own. No male is trained in similar fashion to put the needs of females above his own, as we see in all the appealing to us to understand where a particular male’s needs begin and end, compared to the absence of any male ever posting simply to ask: what can I do to help women?

The fight we did not ask for came to us. Suddenly we were talking about a population of males in women’s spaces several orders of magnitude larger than we’d before acquiesced to, along with far more intrusion into far more spaces: hospital rooms, ffs, or changing rooms at work where we’re now expected to strip down with male colleagues, or hostels where we’re expected somehow to sleep peacefully beside male strangers.

Meanwhile, they came for our children, advocating and grooming our kids into unconscionable medical experimentation.

Throughout all this, with rare exception, transexuals who might have made a difference years ago remained silent.

Now — now — that women are fighting back and beginning to turn the tide, now that women are saying that no males belong in our spaces, now that transing children is being recognised for the medical abuse that it is, some transsexuals are making special pleading that’s they are different and we’re never part of the malevolence women are now fighting.

But the principled time to speak up was years ago. Speaking up only now — we’ll, the word that comes to mind is: opportunism.

did not go out on a “trans hunt.”

Oh MNHQ, so wish there was an edit function! Autocorrect sometimes so funky!

I was on Mumsnet a while ago as were several friends of mine but we all left because we felt attacked.

So some TS people allegedl said they felt attacked?
Doesn't mean they were attacked, maybe women refused to comply? Maybe women disagreed strongly? Maybe none of that had any thing to do with what sex / gender identity etc they were.

Expectations and perceptions can be powerful particularly when rooted in sexed socialiation /based stereotypes.

Dec 2018 letter in the Times published by a group of transsexuals protesting the overreach and violent tactics by some trans activists is discussed on this illuminating thread, which revealed tensions within the group, the impossibilities of separating transsexuals from trans rights activists as well as some agendas very different to those initially claimed:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3445694-Letter-in-the-Times-Plea-To-The-Trans-Lobby-from-group-of-transsexuals

Yes I do feel that people say they were attacked when they mean disagreed with or someone was rude.

Id love to join a women's only gym but none can confirm that their women's only gym is indeed women only. So I stay home.

Something that's really pissed me off is the way all this toxic shit has caused so much upset and distress within previously close communities when there's been absolutely no need for it.

Discussion and debate is one of the great gifts of good relationships. Hearing the stories and life experiences of the people around us is deeply enriching. My friends and family include gay, straight, (genuine) trans and some weird single people. We learn from each other and pass the potatoes and do the dishes and get the ice cream out.

Anyone who shouts "transphobic', "bigot", "die in a fire" towards anyone who doesn't parrot the TRA mantra and refuses to have an actual live conversation that doesn't descend into a toddler tantrum is a massive knob with a tiny brain.

It’s not a loaded question though. It’s a valid and important one. Women’s spaces are for women and girls - human females - not for people who think they have some inner feminine essence that makes them an honorary woman. You’re claiming to be an ally and then dodging an important issue clearly showing you’re someone who wants to be treated as special.

Whilst we separate into transsexual and transgender we continue to cede space to people who aren’t born female. There is no difference between the different kind of trans - this is a manipulative appeal to female socialisation and it stinks.

I totally agree with this. And that asking women in the presence of others is not fair, and even that they may not want to be disapproved of by the gym staff, so it is a coercive question from the very start.

People with MH conditions (gender dysphoria being one) are people and people can exhibit all kinds of personality traits and characteristics, depending on or exacerbated by their condition and the severity, so why wouldn't some people with gender dysphoria be generally 'nice' people - unless they are males specifically using women's single sex spaces, then to me that makes them not so nice.

Its hard to have a discussion with a male who defends their use women's spaces and a lot of women think that it wrong.

Also, I read about CAH that the OP says they have, as I am trying to learn about these DSDs as they are often brought into the trans debate now, and I am slightly confused. CAH is a hormone condition but it can lead to an over production of androgens (male sex hormones eg testosterone) and so may be an intersex condition in females as androgens may lead to ambiguous genitals, but I can see nothing of how this would be an intersex condition for a male, or how it may be said to be feminising or something which I had understood to be the OP's point.

rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia/

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia/symptoms-causes/syc-20355205

I do hope the OP won't feel attacked by my confusion. I was just doing my due diligence before asking the OP if they would elaborate on about how they felt their condition affected their being trans. Am happy to read the science.

I was just wondering how many female users of OP’s women only gym may have stopped going when they saw a male bodied person there, or how many women haven’t joined because the gym is not actually single sex?

To clarify, the OP actually said that their body was "essentially male" which I took to mean they are male, XY, but that they have gender dysphoria and wish to 'live as a woman' and have had transsexual surgeries.

If it turns out that they OP is actually XX but was masculinalised by their medical condition but is now wanting to live as a woman, then I apologise for misunderstanding, and of course it turns the thread on its head.

And it would go to show why we all need to stick to using the right words and definitions for male and female, and XX and XY.

Yeah, gyms aren't closed groups where you can just consult those present and move on. Some transsexuals want to use women's gyms. Not long ago someone said on another thread that they just want to use the loos. And women are supposed to accept a case-by-case solution, which basically means saying yes when asked.
Can someone explain why the discomfort of some males trumps the discomfort of women who don't want to share women's spaces with male bodies?
Is gender dysphoria more important than trauma from sexual violence, for instance - why is it women who need to "get over it"?

I want to use that posh gym down the road but I can’t afford it and it makes me very distressed. If they’d just make an exception for me I’m sure nobody would mind, Everyone else pays, so it’s not like they’d go bankrupt, and it’s not like anyone else would even know I don’t pay just by looking at me, unlike the women at OP’s gym who clearly know a male when they see and hear one.

Re OP, this was a relevent recent thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3506594-Transsexuals-leaving-the-Stonewall-umbrella?pg=3

plattercake you beat me to it re the intersex CAH for males! CAH makes male babies more physically masculine. Nothing whatsoever to do with feeling like a woman.

What is the issue with using a mixed gym? If the 'alpha males' are being boorish, surely that is the issue that should be dealt with? Start a campaign to chuck the bullies out; you'd probably get a great deal of support from female members. Create a safe mixed space.

It would have been great to have a conversation with TSnTG about how their use of a female gym was not as straightforward as they thought.

It would have been. But the "ta da!" in the "actually thay have been asked" was quite clear. As others have said, many women faced with being asked would have quietly demurred and maybe simply not returned!

A year ago that would have been how I reacted. Now I would have looked around and thought about the reasons the women in the room wanted a female only session... muslim women, jewish women, women with mastectomies, other medical issues, women who don't feel comfortable in exercise clothes with men around, with PTSD, women who just want exercise in a female space, not to have to put up with the male gaze... and I would say "No! I don't want to share this female space with a man"

The crux of this is why have I changed so much?

The answer is TRA actions and the inability of "real transgender" people to accept that they too are men and I no longer wish to acquiesce or pretend!

TimeLady because in the scenario being talked about a women's space had been created... and was being eradicated.

No gym will kick out the alpha males, they are their best customers, their best secondary spenders (where all gyms make the majority of their profit).

Ah, I see. It's too damn hard to change the alpha males, so we'll bully the more aquiescent females instead. I get it now.

I agree curious. But I think we are missing opportunities to educate each other. I can understand not wanting to engage with someone, resenting the need to explain the obvious or sweeten the pill. That's fine. Go and talk to someone else. Haranguing someone who will then stop engaging shuts down the debate and feeds into the mythology.

This is a thread that should be read by everyone. All is being played out here for anyone who cares to use their critical faculties to see.

Unfortunately it's the case that we cannot take anything at face value. We need to do more than scratch the surface. And how interesting that when we do that, when we ask for clarification and a greater understanding, when we say - 'hang on, I disagree with that for this reason' - we are made to feel we have done something wrong and should
be ashamed of ourselves for being mean and unwelcoming.

All is not as it seems - if it were, we would be able to have full
and robust discussions.

I refuse to not see how we are being set up in threads such as this. And I am grateful to those who expose this for what it is.

But I think we are missing opportunities to educate each other. To me it feels as though that education can only possibly have one outcome, that TWAW. All else is unfair and not nice. We are always being asked to consider the feelings of transwomen, but never have the feelings of women put first and foremost.

Even the best intentioned, most pleasant of TW, as many posters here have been, end up introducing their emotions as a reason for woemen to have pause. They also say things like "I use women's spaces but only with their agreement" and then refuse to listen when posters like myself try to exlain why that might not be the whole truth. If we cannot express that then where is the discussion?

I can understand not wanting to engage with someone, resenting the need to explain the obvious or sweeten the pill. I DO wish to engage, but I don't have anything to sweeten the pill with.

That's fine. Go and talk to someone else. So you are shutting me up?

Haranguing someone who will then stop engaging shuts down the debate and feeds into the mythology. So I must shut up so someone else can continue to speak unchecked... feeding what mythology?

And even if there is agreed accommodation for a post surgical transwoman colleague, what happens then when 'George in accounts' shows up as Georgina in a dress, as part of his APG validation and wants to access that female space too? How does management refuse when the precident has already been set?