There are genuine transgender people - but they are quiet.

[andyoldlabour]

I found this on KF, and it shows that there are transgender people with empathy, who do not agree with the way very masculine transgender people are treating women.
It came as a surprise to me, but also was very heartening.
If they were all like this person then there wouldn't be any problems, so it has confirmed my beliefs that certain people are not really transgender but using it for their own nefarious reasons.

twitter.com/kinesis/status/1062885504541110272

I saw that interview on 'this morning' with the trans lady, saying we should let trans people into these spaces because they're already there and not causing harm. But for me that isn't the point, it isn't a fear of trans people, it's a fear that we aren't safe.

Its recognition that we aren't safe.
The fear is the current lack of agency or feeling that we lack agency to effect change.

Its recognition that we aren't safe. An important distinction to make.

It isn't a fear, a belief, it is absolute knowledge!

Bewilderness is no longer posting on the FWR board. I miss her because I learned so much from her and the other long standing feminists who used to post here.

from The Rules of Misogyny:

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

link here, there are 14 and worth remembering:
www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/comments/6kkeni/the_rules_of_misogyny/

I would recommend that people lookat the rules of misogyny.

Some of the rules may appear over the top at first, but pretty much all of them can apply to male transpeople's demands on women.

I still don't understand why thebewilderness was discouraged from posting here. She was very kind to women and has a lot of experience to share.

It's true, they look harsh. But as soon as you see them happening, it all makes sense.

Transactivists are furious if you acknowledge male pattern behaviour or male pattern violence.

The refrain is, oh my God you're saying we're are all rapists.

When people get DBS checked, none of them go oh my God you're saying we're all paedophiles.

It's a deliberate, determined attempt to shut you down. Because it fucks over their arguments.

Non transactivists who get arsey, like men did over the MeToo campaign, are doing that because they feel hurt by being associated with predatory men.

Their hurt feelings are more important than women being able to acknowledge and recognise male pattern violence.

If you're feeling frustrated that what you are trying to say is falling on stony ground, ask yourself if you're being manipulated into not saying exactly what it is you want to.

Can't we all campaign for safe spaces for trans people?

Stonewall could do that in a heartbeat. They have the money and the influence. They just don’t want to.

It's absolutely not the fear of trans people, it's the fear of the unknown, anyone could be in there and have the right to be there too.

Tesco welcome - yes, and also the thing I hate is the lying, so M&S for example now have mixed sex, single 'gender' changing rooms but the label on the door still says women and men. Which I'm betting most of the M&S customers think means single sex. Especially as there are still only 2 - and I'm reliably informed that there are 70+ 'genders'.

Can't we all campaign for safe spaces for trans people? All the women I know would be on board with that, I'm sure none of us want to segregate anyone but that doesn't mean we want our rights trampled on. I just don't understand it!

I'd campaign for that too (or for more unisex floor to ceiling cubicles etc) but I'm afraid my conclusion about this is that the TRA agenda is actually all about removing safe spaces from women and girls. TRAs seem almost universally unhappy with the idea that they wouldn't be able to use single sex spaces, even if they had separate third spaces to use. Which tells you a lot about their motivations.

Transactivists are furious if you acknowledge male pattern behaviour or male pattern violence.

Many Men's Rights activists also try to prevent descriptions of male-pattern violence and abuse.
Its very important that its named and described. Prevention denies the opportunity to discuss and deal with what are escalating levels of sexual abuse, coercive control and DV.

Can't we all campaign for safe spaces for trans people?

Yes, but to be any use to women and girls it needs to run along a campaign to ensure that women's spaces are single sex.

You're all saying exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't find the words exactly. This is the first time I've really thought about it and you're right, it's recognition of the fact that actually we aren't safe really are we. If trans people aren't fighting for spaces of their own then the question is why do they want to be in our spaces? Without being rude, it seems there's an alterior motive doesn't it. I'd personally still like single sex spaces.
If I'm in a nightclub and want to get away from a creepy bloke, and go to the loos (we all know that's where we go) can't some bloke just say he's trans and waltz right in, then no one can say anything because then they're being offensive!?

Now imagine that ALL the nightclub toilets are made gender neutral and EVERY man in the place can just follow us straight in.

Fuck that shit.

If someone wants to start a campaign for safe spaces for trans people, crack on, but people don't have infinite time and resources. How about getting men to lead the safe spaces campaign, so women can focus on the women's rights side of the equation?

Why would trans people even want that? Surely that puts them at risk too. They'll never be able to walk away from abuse either. I don't understand why anyone would think this is an inclusive good idea. It's not at all.
I hate the argument "trans people are already in these spaces, we just want to campaign to make it everywhere for everyone". What a horrible idea.

Short of one of us throwing ourselves in front of a horse (again) what can we do? Ms Pankhurst didn't die for this

It’s not so much what transpeople want, it’s more that that’s what businesses/universities/authorities will do, because they daren’t risk the lawsuits/bullying campaigns that attempting to maintain strict sex segregated spaces will bring on top of them.

All gender neutral everything is the unintended end point, basically.

But if you won't abide any woman ever speaking in a way that challenges your Inner Beryl, you will remain a slave to your Inner Beryl forever.

This is very true.

And I also miss TheBewilderness

• a real loss to FWR.

What happened to Bewilderness? She was around when I first discovered Mumsnet FWR. I miss her too.

The real answer lies in men making spaces for effeminate men and men who dress like women. Deal with your deep-rooted homophobia, chaps, and make your single-sex spaces safer.

Whenever I get abuse on Twitter from men who tell me that I am literally killing transwomen by refusing to accommodate them, my reply is always along the lines of:

"They are uncomfortable around men. They want protection from men. It's up to men do something about that, not women. Your responsibility, not mine."

I think the reason men push TW onto women doesn’t arise out of homophobia per se but out of something much more primitive: their own castration anxiety.

Which, at base, is misogyny.

I saw that interview on 'this morning' with the trans lady, saying we should let trans people into these spaces because they're already there and not causing harm

Just coming back to this point, as I've literally just got in from a long 2 days away...

How does the trans lady know how many women don't now go to women's spaces, because of the trans lady being there; and thus putting their physical health, mental health or anything else at risk?

We know it was all part of the plan, to take over women's group by women's group; to isolate and break down these groups to be all about the trans. It's in the manifestos. So how anyone can say 'they aren't hurting anyone' is a mystery to me. As soon as one woman or girl doesn't attend a support group because the group is not female only, a woman or girl is potentially hurt in some way.

For example Smears.

We don't know how many women's fears of smears have been heightened after the report of a woman being confronted by a trans woman there to take her smear.

We don't know. if one woman who does have cancer, is delaying going for a smear because of this, then one woman may get hurt because the NHS is letting trans women basically loose on giving smears to women if they identify as women.

This is why the GRA should be repealed. It isn't needed for the purpose it was originally intended for [to allow same sex marriage], so get rid. It should have been ditched the day after same sex marriage was legal.

We don't know. if one woman who does have cancer, is delaying going for a smear because of this, then one woman may get hurt because the NHS is letting trans women basically loose on giving smears to women if they identify as women

The CRUK information for 'people with cervixes' to have will impact women who don't know they have a cervix, know where it is, have limited literacy / english language skills.
This is at a time when there is a decline in women having the tests.

Gyny cancer awareness needs to be direct, straight talking and tests made as accessible as is possible.

Just as smear tests need to be as accessible as possible.

UK gyny cancer rates are not great and awareness and catching diseases early are both really important parts of improving outcomes.

Any and all actions by TRAs which limit the effectiveness of gyny cancer awareness and early detection will have an impact on women's lives and it will likely be women who are vulnerable affected.

Its Ovarian Cancer awareness month btw & cervical smear tests do not test for this so important to be aware of possible early symptoms eveappeal.org.uk/

Any and all actions by TRAs which limit the effectiveness of gyny cancer awareness and early detection will have an impact on women's lives and it will likely be women who are vulnerable affected.

Exactly.

Just because a trans woman is not actually videoing, assaulting, committing GBH, ABH, raping or murdering does not mean that women are not being 'hurt' by their presence.

Went out for lunch with my daughter and her partner this weekend to a 'hipster' cafe in Manchester. She went to the loo and reported that they were mixed - urinals and cubicles together. I kept my legs crossed till I got home...

I kept my legs crossed till I got home...

And what happens when you retain urine for too long?