My husband is woke

[WizbetisaNizbet]

Just that really.

He spotted something I wrote on here and stated it was “hate filled.” Nope it was an innocuous comment of the signatories of the letter in the Scottish Herald. He’s quoted Owen Jones at me “you’re on the wrong side of history.”

He ignores what I say when I try to talk about why I don’t agree with what is going, on telling me that I am denying trans people their rights. I ask him how my refuse to use pronouns denies anyone thier rights or what rights are being denied but he can’t seem to answer me. When I give him examples in answer to his questions he doesn’t want to talk about specific examples that are relevant.

He can’t see what the problem is about women’s sports, self-ID etc. He also keeps telling me I side with Trump (no). To be honest i’m fed up and upset that he won’t listen to my trying to explain to him why women are so upset and angry.

This is just a vent by the way.

Sorry, excuse the errant *with.

Wrong side of history

History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. What is history? History is women following behind with the bucket.

Can you ask him why he thinks he is a man?
Can you ask him if he believes people should be able to change their age, or their race, if they wish?

My partner is thankfully very much on the same page as I am. He ain’t no woke bro! My parents and step parents all have a very different opinion to me. My dad doesn’t care because it doesn’t affect him and thinks my daughter will just have to learn to deal with penis owners in changing rooms. My mum thinks people are just people and my step mum thinks it’s all about dysphoria because she works in a psychology capacity and deals with people who have GD. My brother has become a woke bro. He started out by declaring his bisexuality now he is “Male presenting” (which I think is probably a step before he decides to out himself). To be honest I dread when that happens as my opinion is apparently irrelevant and my fears unfounded.

How I long for the days when some men (gay, straight or bi) just enjoyed a bit of sexual submission and wearing a bit of make up and soft-textured clothing, without actually having to cosplay being “female.”

(Entirely happy to make the distinction between people with dysphoria who are transitioning to help with that, and those who think that if they are not a walking, breathing example of the gender stereotype associated with their sex then they must be something else.)

Mine says, we're on the same page but me checking twitter and getting upset over every 'little thing' is bad for me and there is a definite whiff of 'it's upsetting for him'.

MyNewtMyFrogMyLittleRedDog exactly!

Would he sleep with a transwoman with a penis? If not, why not?

If you decide to identify as a man, will he tell all his family and friends he’s gay? Why not?

can humans change sex?

My DH gets it. But then, he’s from a martial arts/bike gang background (too old nowadays 😂) so Fallon Fox was all he needed.

Even the Guardian is having to wrestle with the sports angle now:

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/03/sports-stars-weigh-in-on-row-over-transgender-athletes

I often feel like I live in a parallel universe when I read MN. I do know people who work in the council/NHS etc who would have to be careful what they said and be ultra pc at work BUT I don't think I know anyone who would actually beleive TWAW or that men should be able to just say they are women and enter women's sports etc.
I still don't think anyone truly believes that men are women because of Ladybrain.
I think they are on the wind up OR trying to be nice.

Thank fuck my husband totally gets it, even if he gets a bit fed up when i go off on one or I’d really struggle to respect him tbh just as i would if he started saying stuff like “well Hitler was just misunderstood” or “that rape victim was sort of asking for it dressed like that”. It’s quite a mismatch on views/beliefs.

I couldn’t be with someone who disagreed with me on a such a fundamental issue. See also Brexit. Having compatibility in terms of values is one of the key indicators of relationship success. Also how can he possibly dismiss the feelings of women? He has not the experience to know what he’s talking about.

Thanks toorah that’s it exactly.

My dh totally gets it, but doesn’t really think much about it in real life. Presumably as it doesn’t affect him whatsoever.
But when he sees things on the news eg Karen white, his reaction is more ‘who the fuck didn’t see that coming’ sort of thing.
He very ‘white van man’, none of your woke bullshit, which I like.

Also, I don’t say this to be be harsh to the OP, but I think the reason she wants the thread deleted are because people are saying her husband is a prick.
Can’t be nice to hear, especially if this is the first time something like this has happened.

But op, someone who loves you doesn’t automatically view you as ‘hate filled’, there’s nothing ‘lovely’about that.

It sounds to me like his ‘loveliness’ is directly proportional to how well you ‘behave’.

It's a shame to ask for this to be deleted OP. It highlights a real issue where women are with left wing men who are 'oh so right on' but totally fail to respect their female partner's experiences and views. You're evidently not alone so surely it's not outing?

It sounds to me like his ‘loveliness’ is directly proportional to how well you ‘behave’.
Exactly. That's what I failed to articulate earlier! This may well be the first time OP has failed to 'behave' the right way and it's come as a shock to both of them

My DP wants to be kind to trans people that he knows and doesn't always understand the female perspective unless it is explained to him, so it's been a journey but I think he's almost there. I don't think he'll ever have much passion about the issue unless it ends up directly affecting our children or something, but he does think I'm 'probably right' now. He was never a full-on subscriber to any sort of woke ideology, though, he's mostly a pragmatist who doesn't want to be mean to his friend.

My parents agree with me but not because they are gender critical - they are pretty big fans of gender and love to point out all the ways my brother and I conform to gender expectations, while apparently just forgetting all the ways we don't. So we are not really on the same page, but they definitely oppose trans ideology because they are not living in bizarro world and know that you can't change sex and that sex matters.

My brother gets it. He's a good man and I would describe him as a natural feminist ally (not a 'male feminist' who goes on about it). Although like any man he can be clueless about the female perspective, he does listen and actually take things on board in a respectful way.

I have very few friends I can discuss this with and would lose a lot of my social circle and possibly even my job would be in danger if I was 'out' in general.

It's so strange to be in this sort of limbo where you have to think about who is 'safe' to discuss this issue with.

No one wants to “ be mean” to their friends. Most people don’t want to be mean to anyone.

But I manage to socialise or have friends and colleagues who have different religious or political beliefs than me. I am not being mean to them to disagree with their beliefs.

I don’t insist that they agree with me and they do the same. If only some trans believers extended the same courtesy .

Magic I so agree, it is really stressful self censoring all the time. My woke adult daughter has found my Twitter feed and is terribly upset. Since foolishly I only tweet when I am really angry, I can see why she objects. She thinks I am totally misguided, but is also worried that I am exposing myself to danger from random nutters. I have decided to delete my Twitter account (if only I could remember the stupid password!).
I do view mumsnet as a safe space, as I cannot discuss this issue in real life. I have a long term illness which leaves me very little energy, so some days mumsnet is a boon to me.

Yes, but the trans lobby have been extremely successful in framing the discussion in a way that any criticism, however mild, is taken as 'literal violence' and baseless cruelty.

No, it's not mean to disagree with a friend's faith-based beliefs. It is entirely possible to disagree in a respectful way, but only once the other person has accepted your right to disagree and that they do not have the right to impose their beliefs on you against your will. I am friends with plenty of religious people. I couldn't care less about their spiritual beliefs, they are just nice people. Their beliefs have no impact on my life and they know I likewise have no desire to stop them from practising their religion in any way that doesn't affect others.

The trouble is that the majority of trans people will simply never accept that their beliefs are faith based and that other people have the right to opt out. It's the truth (because lady brain!) and heretics must be eliminated.

The trouble is that the majority of trans people will simply never accept that their beliefs are faith based and that other people have the right to opt out. It's the truth (because lady brain!) and heretics must be eliminated

That’s the problem isn’t it? It’s as if we were all raised in the Uk, where you can have any religion or belief or none and 99% of people dont really care either way. And now we’ve been moved ( without our consent ) to Pakistan, where your job (or more ) is at risk if you speak against the one true faith.

One thing to remember is that many of us didn't "get it" at first either, but we soon found something that made us realise that the whole thing is just a bit "off".

I suggest you each agree to read 3 articles each that are given by the opposing team. So he can send you three articles on why he believes what he does and you can do the same.

You each have to promise to read them critically and with compassion and see if you can come to a middle ground or an understanding of each other's ideas and opinions.

This is why this debate becomes so entrenched and unhappy - because we want to sling abuse at each other. We want to point out why people are wrong and we are right, without taking the time to try to understand WHY they think the way they do.

Mine is GC, increasingly so. He’s furious about the medicalisation of children in particular. Is yours not worried about this?