My husband is woke

[WizbetisaNizbet]

Just that really.

He spotted something I wrote on here and stated it was “hate filled.” Nope it was an innocuous comment of the signatories of the letter in the Scottish Herald. He’s quoted Owen Jones at me “you’re on the wrong side of history.”

He ignores what I say when I try to talk about why I don’t agree with what is going, on telling me that I am denying trans people their rights. I ask him how my refuse to use pronouns denies anyone thier rights or what rights are being denied but he can’t seem to answer me. When I give him examples in answer to his questions he doesn’t want to talk about specific examples that are relevant.

He can’t see what the problem is about women’s sports, self-ID etc. He also keeps telling me I side with Trump (no). To be honest i’m fed up and upset that he won’t listen to my trying to explain to him why women are so upset and angry.

This is just a vent by the way.

I think that to get it you have to start from a place of curiosity as to why feminists are so angry about this.

yes and the fact that so many men - and women sadly - refuse to listen to what feminists are actually saying and just calling them bigots/hysterical really comes from deep-seated misogyny.

WizbetisaNizbet

"Unfortunately he reads the Guardian and the BBC. He also tried to me that Martina was wrong. Martina! "

If you show him the comments sections for some of the articles, and the twitter feeds from Sharron Davies, Martina, Kelly Holmes, Daley Thompson, he will see that he is thankfully very much in a minority, and that the tide is definitely changing.
Frankly, I cannot understand anyone who cannot see something very wrong in this increasingly dangerous ideology.

If this was my dh I would assume that he just didn't like women very much. There's a particularly unpleasant group of men who love using the self id debate to punish women for being feminists in the first place.

yes and the fact that so many men - and women sadly - refuse to listen to what feminists are actually saying and just calling them bigots/hysterical really comes from deep-seated misogyny

110 percent this.

Before dh reached peak trans (through sport), we had some friends over, neither of whom had even thought about trans issues before. She immediately got the fear and consent issues, but neither of the men did. So I started talking to their bodies, checking out their trouser bulges and their bums, talking over them, commenting to my friend about their bodies etc. She picked up on what I was doing and joined in.

The men, being nice guys, soon became uncomfortable. We, of course, laughed at their discomfort, explained that this is exactly what women and girls have to endure - and continued.

This made them cross, so we laughed at them and accused them of not being able to take a joke. And explained again.

Eventually they understood.

My husband was definitely not woke but really uninterested as more important things are happening in the world.
It's taken me a while but he now definitely understands my position and agrees with me. I have done a lot of drip feeding about many things I have learned on here.
Peak trans for him was when I told him about the young transgender teenagers and that they think they should have medical help to become parents. ie a donated womb after theirs was removed, eggs and sperm because they do not have any anymore.
The difference between you op and me is that although my husband may not have agreed with me he was never rude, dismissive or downright nasty about the fact that there was a difference. He quite likes me and thinks I'm relatively intelligent, and appreciates the fact I'm entitled to have my own opinion.

Looking on from the outside Fazackerley I too would think this.

But I suppose it must feel very different on the inside when you're used to your husband praising your political views (maybe you agree on the harm done by benefit cuts, the horror of the Windrush scandal, Brexit etc. etc.). You assumed this was because you happened to be on the same page, but he respected you as a person, and respected your right to hold political views arrived at under your own steam.

This may well be the first issue you've ever disagreed on. In other words, it's the first time you've ever said "no" (politically speaking). And, if you want the measure of a man, watch how he reacts when you say "no" to him.

But if it's been years and years of apparently amicable relationship before the circumstances arose in which that first "no" was uttered, the temptation to minimise the problem must be huge. And (as I keep saying) it's not the disagreement in itself that is the problem; it is the description of the opposing view as "hate filled."

I would say, I want badly for people to be able to look how they like, and have whatever name they like, and not face discrimination. And its not right to expect that a transwoman would wear a dress or make up, is it, because women don’t have to. And its not right that they should have to shave their beard off, or ‘pass’. Or that a trans man should have to have surgery to remove their breasts. And then that made me go through a process of questioning, well in that case, what is a woman? And how do I tell that woman’s gender or intentions in a single sex space. Because, after all, the vast vast majority of violence, against men or against women, is carried out by males. And can a woman change her stance and mannerisms and voice and shop in the mens section and then call herself a man? (Should ‘he’ have to change his voice?) Well that struck me as kind of disrespectful to everything boys and men go through and, kind of bound up in the gender stereotypes that I believe harm men and women. And then I learned that sadly things like going in womens bathrooms, having access to women and dating women ‘as a woman’ are more of a fetish or predatory opportunity for some males than I had previously been aware of. And I learned that taking puberty blockers carries risks, and that taking hormones can cause harm, and I got angry at medical services that seem to be experimenting on vulnerable young people. I realised that by letting males self identify into womens sport, and females into mens sport, we were putting women and girls at risk of harm and again disadvantaging them. And I kind of realised that in terms of the rights of women and girls we were at risk of being regressive rather than progressive, by moving towards self-identification. I have found this very hard and I know you don’t have these same questions or concerns, but I would appreciate it if you understand that I do have concerns and I think scrutiny and discussion are important on issues that affect society.

Yes I think people who have been brought up on easy street are less likely to understand. If they read The Guardian and BBC news site they think they have fulfilled their social duties. Hence my daughter has had a lovely liberal upbringing and now feels an unthinking support for TWAW. I, on the other hand, had rather a rougher start in life. I'm very aware that men can be predatory. It certainly colours my views.

yes and the fact that so many men - and women sadly - refuse to listen to what feminists are actually saying and just calling them bigots/hysterical really comes from deep-seated misogyny

110 percent this

Somehow it's still all our fault in the end though. Either cos we all wanted equality or because we didnt warn then.

Pah. Relatively intelligent! I meant to say smart, I'm definitely smarter than him. He may have more degrees but he knows I'm smart.

My DH is the same. It's very frustrating. He is 6'4" & extremely strong. I am under 5'3" & disabled. I asked him what hed do if he saw a male person in a dress follow me, or our 6y/o DD into the women's public toilets. He didn't have an answer for that question.

I suspect the 2020 Olympics will start to open a lot of people's eyes.

Notice how it's almost always men who are "woke" and telling stupid women how wrong we are? Interesting.

Can't help you with your husband, unfortunately. He can only help himself, and you if he even cares about you and your rights? Seems he doesn't...

DH and I disagree on many things. He has never called me hate-filled. I am sure our relationship could not survive one of us thinking that of the other. Your issue might be better off on the Relationships board.

Divorce him, and tell him to get himself a new wife with a lady dick then.

Some people on the left feel superior to those whose views are more right wing and absolutely believe they have right on their side, they won't research it as they feel they don't have to.
This

OP's husband sounds like a dick, tbh. I'd be raging if my opinions were dismissed as "evil" by someone who pretends to respect me.
And if someone I married wouldn't even hear me out on why I held a strong belief I'd reconsider my marriage. The first post states that he won't talk about specifics and won't listen either. Just dismissed it all as being "evil". What happens when you disagree on treatment for a seriously ill child you have together? What happens when you discuss big financial decisions made together? Is OP allowed an opinion then?
Pretty much failing to see how he is "lovely" tbh.

Notice how it's almost always men who are "woke" and telling stupid women how wrong we are? Interesting

I can think of perhaps 2 female vocal and active tras.

I'm wondering what will happen when they penny drops that no matter how much they have picked up to their tra friends, that when it comes down to it not only will they be dropped the second everything goes through, they will be no safer than the rest of us despite their efforts. I predict they will go surprisingly quiet when the reality of the "oh shit" moment of being in a poorly lit public loo with no one around but a six ft six bloke who's taking full advantage of the clause happens.

I confess this OP was the first i've read where I was tempted to give a three letter response:

LTB

(i've been on mn for years).

Yes, isn't it a case of "careful what you wish for" ?!

I'm a regular lurker on these threads but seldom post, I also follow lots of similar stuff on Twitter.
DH is so right wing he agrees with me for the wrong reasons but
I have two adult sons who are a bit woke, I'm wary of saying the wrong thing as they generally respect my opinions and I don't think they would this.

RockyFlintstone your idea of pushing the sexual attraction question could work. I also think the sport issue will prove to be the turning point for most of the public who have never given the matter a thought.

That was to Gerry!

Yes, isn't it a case of "careful what you wish for" ?!

One would have hoped that the reactions to the reports of the prison incidents and the attacks etc would have given them the answer.

The reporters have been called liars. The victims have been accused of fabricating everything.

It's all " never happened"

They weren't proper trans etc

Not one ounce of sympathy for the victims. They have kicked it every event as being lies by bigoted reporters even when reported in pink news

How that hasn't made them realise they really will be on their own once their purpose has been served I dont know

thank you everyone for your responses. It’s nice to have the support. I’ve calmed down considerably now.

We’ve been together for a long time. We know what to say to push the others buttons.
He knows I think he’s an idiot. I’ve sent him
the link to FairPlay for women and a Women’s place UK. Hopefully it will start to sink in.

I’m going to ask for the thread to be deleted.

Wizbet, Thanks for giving me the chance to vent! Good luck.

I am not so shocked he disagrees - partners can disagree and still be strong and united. But he called you hate filled. To me that shows a complete lack of respect to you and for your own intelligence: like you cannot form well reasoned positions, they just must come from hate. To me that is a major red flag, to be honest. And maybe you were kidding about just being on speaking terms again, but similarly it leaves me wondering what else is going on here.

I would say my husband and I are both left - me identifying as a radical feminist - but neither us have ever bought into the TRA ideology being pushed - the identity politics. He has worked with transsexuals and socialized with them and never had any issue with treating them as human persons, and never really got why others would have an issue with what someone wants to call themselves or dress. He certainly thinks trans people as a whole are deserving of respect. But, he does think it is absurd to have men - whether they identify as women or not - competing in sport against women, using women’s toilets, being in women’s prisons, and sending the police after others for “misgendering”. I did not have to push him to this, he as a smart man figured it out though I think his listening to several podcasts where identify politics was an issue (with Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, and I also sent him links to some Feminist Current podcasts) probably sped up the process by helping him really understand more of the background and what the TRAs are really pushing at cost of women and girls.