Any Trans Inclusive feminists here?

[JaxintheBlue]

A space for respect, equality & peace in the rainbow for us?

Many people new to some of the wider issues have found this thread useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Thank you for this. I know that people will think my previous post is goady, but it really isn't meant to be. I am genuinely not sure where I stand on all this and can see both sides. I have never been on the fence like this about any issue before so I am really keen to educate myself about it!

does anyone else get the feeling that the OP hasn't properly read the responses and thinks all of those saying they include trans people in their feminism mean they include trans identifying men? Oh dear...

am genuinely not sure where I stand on all this and can see both sides
I was on the fence toountil i researched and started reading things by debbie Hayton and other transsexuals who are against self ID and are worried about children and getting attacked by TRA's too.

It was ‘educating myself’ that led me down the rabbit hole from ‘confused transally’ to ‘terfy mcterfface’.

I dont' think you're alone, there, Betty.

does anyone else get the feeling that the OP hasn't properly read the responses and thinks all of those saying they include trans people in their feminism mean they include trans identifying men?

No i think they've only just realised Transmen exist and have realised we are on the whole not excluding Tran identifing people.

See mine is totally different, even going by Pinknew's own statistics 80% of the public are against it.

YY. It is absolutely not the case that "most people don't have a problem with self ID" when it is explained to them what it actually means with regard to single sex spaces and things like the right to have a female rape counsellor and not a male.

TheShiteRunner, keeping reading, keep learning, keep women as your priority. You'll do fine. Ignore my bad temper today, short fuse due to extremely stressful circumstances, related to biology.

Thanks Captain Kirk - they sound like the kind of concerns I have, I shall read up on Debbie Hayton.

I thought that was quite a good point, then it made me wonder - are we ever visited here by women who have transitioned?

Links to women who 'transitioned' and are now describing their experiences from the perspective of 'de-transitioning':

'One of them detransitioned women'

www.peaktrans.org/detransitioning/

Four young females Q&A

Discussion of interviews with a woman whose PSTD and sexual abuse when she was a child was not recognised prior to medical intervention which wrongly affirmed her being 'transgender':
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414138-Im-not-meant-to-be-a-bloke-Woman-who-changed-gender-to-become-man-called-Lee-says-sex-swap-was-a-huge-mistake

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

in real life about this has been horrified when they discover the majority of transwomen don't have surgery, yet a huge number of TW still want access to female space.

Also people often really still don't get this, due to the less than open way this subject is discussed and the confusing and obfuscatory language. Many people also think "trans woman" means a female person identifying as a man.

Not goady, TheShiteRunner but it’s a big deal to say that people are posting cruel and abusive things about trans people. I’ve rarely seen it, and it’s been reported and removed when it has, so I just wanted to know where you had seen it, but no one here thinks that’s appropriate.

Thank you for this. I know that people will think my previous post is goady, but it really isn't meant to be

My pleasure. There are lots of links on the thread which help to provide the wider context.

We have all being new to the issues.

I'm trans inclusive. Transmen, being female are included in my feminism, and I stand by trans people in their right to be accepted as trans, to live free from discrimination and bullying, whilst being comitted to preserving same-sex spaces for women, and recognising biology. Not hard.

I agree with this.

*Because no one here thinks that’s appropriate. And you said “hateful and cruel” not abusive. FFS, time for bed I think.

IRL, it’s actually men who are more against self ID and any belief that people can change sex, at least in my circles... women tend to put others first because of our socialisation, even if it makes us uncomfortable. Having said that, in private, I have had only 1 friend come out fully supportive that TWAW & decided to no longer be my friend because I didn’t. I have dropped one friend myself, but only because he was aggressive about the issue ( and a rich white leftie dude bro ).

It was ‘educating myself’ that led me down the rabbit hole from ‘confused transally’ to ‘terfy mcterfface’.

OldCrone from what I've read it seems to have been HSTS only. Anna Madrigal from Maupin's books has a male lover. My understanding of the patrons of the Stonewall Inn is that those men who were in drag were looking for other men.
There's a few scenes in the fictionalised film made in 1995 which hit home that the men in drag are men first and foremost. Although I'm sure that 1995 film is totally off-message now, I enjoyed it at the time.

I find it heartening that women posters have reiterated their commitment to including all women, including those who identify as Transmen and non-binary, into, well, whatever it is that we are supposed to include them in.

Now all we need is for men to follow suit and all trans people will be properly included in the includyness that they so badly need.

No i think they've only just realised Transmen exist and have realised we are on the whole not excluding Tran identifing people.

The OP said one of the other threads that they were 'born with a vagina', but identifies as non-binary.

I'm not sure what has gone wrong, but those of us who are a bit older than the OP grew up in a world where we were encouraged to believe that being female didn't limit our choices in life. We seem to have gone backwards, so that girls who don't want to perform femininity have to identify as non-binary or as transmen.

Younger people like Jax don't seem to realise that what they need is feminism, not a non-binary or 'male' identity.

Paul? Paul Bullen? Is that you?

Hot on the heels of your vulva/vagina success are you back with more brilliant manalysis of science words to educate us?

in real life about this has been horrified when they discover the majority of transwomen don't have surgery, yet a huge number of TW still want access to female space.

Which is why I think it was great that Nic Williams managed to get the phrase 'penis and testicles' into her interview about transwomen in women's prisons on R4 yesterday.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3504986-Today-programme

Now all we need is for men to follow suit and all trans people will be properly included in the includyness that they so badly need.
I am beginning to think this was deliberately hijacked though. Young men are more inclusive of gay men now. There is still homophobia, don't get me wrong, but the majority of men, especially young men, no longer thing a gay man isn't an actual man.
So it would have been possible to build on this and for all feminine identified men to be accepted as men.
Since the intake of people who were previously referred to as straight transvestites, this ideal seems further away than ever. Which would suit that group as they would prefer to be included in the group that forms their main sexual interest.

I'm just forming my thoughts on this, but that is what it looks like to me.

When the Gender Recognition Act was passed in 2004 Parliament was assured that there would be around 5000 individuals eligible to apply for one, breaking down roughly to two thirds biological males to one third biological females. I believe that in fact around 5000 GRCs have indeed been issued up to last year. The general public would scarcely notice that number of transwomen and transmen and would assume, with reason, that most of them have had hormone treatment and probably surgery too.

But now Stonewall and others are telling us that:

(a) a diagnosis of gender dysphoria shouldn't be required to get a GRC
(b) paying £70 for a GRC is out of the reach of most trans people so is unfair
(c) living in the intended gender, whatever that's supposed to mean, for two years is too onerous and that requirement should be scrapped
(d) almost anybody can call themselves trans or non-binary, no objective criteria required (although gender critical people who point out that in earlier life they were GNC and later came to terms with their natal sex are mysteriously not true trans/non-binary and nor are any of the people who detransition and nor are the men who cross-dress and then commit sex offences)
(e) toddlers and very young children must be believed when they say they've been born in the wrong body, and set on a path to medicalisation, even though that medicalisation is mysteriously not required for adults transitioning
(f) they estimate there are hundreds of thousands of trans and NB people in the UK
(g) none of the above affects anybody else so none of the rest of us need be consulted about any of it and no research is needed.

Sorry, no. It needs to be discussed openly and the general public needs to know the facts. The great majority of adults now calling themselves trans are not having sexual reassignment surgery and may not even be taking hormones. Even when they do this does not add up to a change of sex, it's all cosmetic. This is not what most people currently believe. Once they do know it changes their opinion very rapidly.

Bittermints
That's an excellent summary

Non binary
*
= I am very special and defy all gender norms. Because I’m special. But the rest of you need to adhere to strict gender stereotypes because otherwise I don’t look special. I am very special, did I mention that?*

That's gone straight onto my list of brilliant quotes about this current nonsense we're all living through.

I had someone in mind as I was reading it and it made such sense..