Any Trans Inclusive feminists here?

[JaxintheBlue]

A space for respect, equality & peace in the rainbow for us?

@Qcng

you just stick to your rhetoric that intersex people are simply disordered

Oh grow up would you, for fucks sake. Honestly.

I'm with @BertrandRussell , feminism should be important to anyone who loves and supports WOMEN's rights.

I welcome anyone into feminism or as a feminist ally if they put women front and centre. Feminism is about women. I am also passionate about anti racism, gay rights, climate change-loads of other issues. But not because I am a feminist.

God. This is all so damaging. I flit between opinions on this, and can see how hormone treatment/operations on young teens is morally complicated. But then I go on the feminism board on mn and many of the posts actually make me sympathetic to the plight of trans people because the posts against them are so hateful and cruel.

Is there anywhere online I can go where there is reasoned and respectful debate about this? My experience is that irl people have no issue with self identification, but that it's very difficult to have that conversation here on MN (as this thread proves.)

I welcome everyone into feminism, regardless of their sex or gender. I just don't welcome everyone into some spaces that are sex-segregated.

I'm with explodedpeach

It's not about being trans or anti trans, it's about being pro women and protecting their safety.

My experience is that irl people have no issue with self identification

See mine is totally different, even going by Pinknew's own statistics 80% of the public are against it.

I take my inspiration from the stories a good friend tells me about the early leather & lgbt movement in 70s San Francisco. It seemed a lot more loving and less conflicted.
Do you think that might be because of the Blanchardian split changing in recent years? I am guessing that the vast majority of transwomen (for example) in 1970s SF were previously gay men. Whereas now there are many people who were previously referred to as straight male transvestites included under the trans umbrella. The two groups have different needs and different concerns. The former are far more at risk of violence, for example.

I think that Miranda Yardley is a better grasp of feminist theory than I have. Does that count?

because the posts against them are so hateful and cruel.

Could you copy and paste or lead us to any examples? Then we can report them? Thanks in advance.

@TheShiteRunner can you explain how this thread proves that you can't have a conversation about self id?

The OP isn't talking about self id, they are using this thread as a continuation of another thread where they are promoting a view about intersex conditions that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Whilst calling people responding "assholes" and other insults.

I’m no fan of the term intersex because it creates the impression of a halfway house, but it is what it is, it’s in the medical dictionaries and it’s not my place to change it.

I thought the more 'correct' and academic term was 'disorders of sex development'. Which is much clearer, in that it indicates that these conditions are abnormalites and not a 'third sex'.

TheShiteRunner

What do you think self ID is?

TheShiteRunner
Damaging, hateful and cruel?

Receipts please

God. This is all so damaging. I flit between opinions on this, and can see how hormone treatment/operations on young teens is morally complicated.

Many people new to some of the wider issues have found this thread useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Yes, I'm sure the reason the OP has had such a rough reception is because we're all nasty exclusionary bitches, and nothing to do with the OP posting crap and insults on two other threads and then trying to start a thread to presumably talk about how mean we are.

I'm usually very amenable to newbies and delurkers, but fucking hell, this is not the day to be telling me to be nice to someone peddling insulting bullshit and then claiming wide eyed innocent niceness in the face of the nasty women who are dealing with the realities of female biology.

You'd forgotten about the females who are trans, hadn't you. Easily done, they're not as important to you I imagine

I thought that was quite a good point, then it made me wonder - are we ever visited here by women who have transitioned?

I'd love to know what some of them have to say about men who transition, safeguarding, self ID etc.

TheShiteRunner
If you see any posts that are hateful and cruel towards Transpeople please report them

I include all biological females including transmen in feminism. Biological males cannot be feminists, although they can be allies. Although I respect transwomens right to identify as whatever they want, they are not biological women and thus are not feminists. To include transwomen in feminism means that feminism is no longer a woman's movement. It's a mixed sex movement. Which is utterly pointless.

For the same reasons transwomen cannot have the same rights to spaces that are in place to keep women safe, as it then makes women's rights meaningless and potentially puts women at risk.

Is Jaxi the OP trawling for screen shots or something?
Been 'scooting' around the boards attention seeking all morning...

I support women who support other women, real ones.
Lang, I like the term Women's Lib, it is clearer.

My experience is that irl people have no issue with self identification, but that it's very difficult to have that conversation here on MN (as this thread proves.)

What's your opinion on Karen White?
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687873/UK-jails-transgender-wings-two-female-inmates-sexually-assaulted-trans-inmate.html

I know I've said that disagreement is very useful usually, in terms of talking about gender critical feminism.

But sometimes disagreement is just daft.

The OP isn't talking about self id, they are using this thread as a continuation of another thread where they are promoting a view about intersex conditions that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Whilst calling people responding "assholes" and other insults.

Sorry- I genuinely didn't realise that this was a TAAT. Will probably be deleted soon then.

and made pronouncements about being non binary, and when you were asked what you mean by that told people to 'educate themselves

It was ‘educating myself’ that led me down the rabbit hole from ‘confused transally’ to ‘terfy mcterfface’.

A ‘be careful what you wish for’ situation, for sure.

I am guessing that the vast majority of transwomen (for example) in 1970s SF were previously gay men. Whereas now there are many people who were previously referred to as straight male transvestites included under the trans umbrella.

There seemed to be a difference back then that those transwomen knew they weren't actually women. Some of them were drag queens who went by female names and pronouns, but didn't have any surgical/medical treatment to change their bodies and knew they were really men.

Just going by what I've read about it, so prepared to be told I'm wrong if someone knows better

My experience is that irl people have no issue with self identification, but that it's very difficult to have that conversation here on MN (as this thread proves.)

Every single person I have spoken to in real life about this has been horrified when they discover the majority of transwomen don't have surgery, yet a huge number of TW still want access to female space. The public were under the illusion that transwomen go to great lengths to change their bodies, but when faced with the realisation that no surgery / hormones are required to identify as a woman, they quickly become extremely concerned about the potential risks to biological women.