Any Trans Inclusive feminists here?

[JaxintheBlue]

A space for respect, equality & peace in the rainbow for us?

A year ago, a Panelbase survey found 25% of the public in support of self-ID. Six or so months ago, a YouGov survey found 18%. A couple of months ago the most recent professional survey (forget which poller!) had it down to 15%.

The more aware the public becomes, the more averse the public becomes.

Thanks! One thing I forgot:

There's been a huge social shift in recent decades to accept single-sex attraction as a normal part of human sexuality, leading to legalisation of gay sex, equalisation of the age of consent, civil partnership, same-sex marriage. The majority of UK people go along with this and many would be horrified to be described as homophobic.

Somehow, I don't really understand how or why since to me they seem quite distinct struggles, LGB groups some years back agreed to widen their scope to campaign for trans rights as well as gay rights. Possibly because a lot of the gay rights battles have been won, trans rights have come to dominate these groups' agendas, but because they are still called LGBT groups, many people assume that it's all of a piece and if they object to a trans rights campaign they will be homophobic.

This is backfiring a bit now as many LGB campaigners are pointing out that there are clashes of rights which need to be debated and resolved, e.g. lesbians should not be hassled to have sex with male-bodied transwomen who are attracted to women, because a lesbian by definition is only attracted to women, and that usually means biological women. Some transactivists argue that this is transexclusionary because what makes someone a woman is all in the head, nothing to do with the genitals.

But here again the general public doesn't grasp this and just either worries about being anti-gay or mutters privately about the loony left.

Transwomen are women falls down when you start talking about lesbians doesn't it.

It's so blindingly obvious that lesbians don't want cock.

Works with heteros too. If my dh became a transwoman that does not make me a lesbian.

It's like transwomen think everyone else is made of putty and exist just to mould themselves around their ideology.

Transwomen are transwomen. Why are they so ashamed of that?

There's been a huge social shift in recent decades to accept single-sex attraction as a normal part of human sexuality, leading to legalisation of gay sex, equalisation of the age of consent, civil partnership, same-sex marriage. The majority of UK people go along with this and many would be horrified to be described as homophobic.

A key driver for political endorcement of the GRA was to avoid same-sex marriage.

The role that homophobia has played in transideology and transrights is significant.
See work done by Vulvamort @ HairyLeggdHarpy linked below:

OP Destinysdaughter wrote:
"Illuminating Twitter thread about the origins of the Gender Recognition Act
This is a very long thread from Twitter about the origins of the GRA 2004, including quotes from Hansard, showing the debates at the time. Illuminating and shocking!

“Tweets from 2003: The Gender Recognition Bill

I'm going to tweet out a few of the illuminating comments from the debates that led to the GRA 2004, to save you all ploughing through Hansard.
One of the primary motivations (if not the foremost) for the bill was to avoid legalising same sex marriage. This featured VERY heavily in the discussions.
#GRA2004

It was, in the Govt's eyes, FAR preferable to convert a same sex couple into a heterosexual couple via 'sex change' than it was to make same sex marriage legal”

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1049289194370002945.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3388967-Illuminating-Twitter-thread-about-the-origins-of-the-Gender-Recognition-Act

LGB groups some years back agreed to widen their scope to campaign for trans rights as well as gay rights
Well I think at one point they were one and the same, as most trans people were same sex attracted before transition. So I, as a butch lesbian, have more in common with a gay male drag queen than a married IT consultant from Guildford who likes sissy porn.
It's the entryism of the latter that appears to have changed things irrevocably. And I say that in full knowledge of the misogyny prevalent amongst gay men.
I might be wrong but that injection of cash at the same time also seemed to change priorities considerably. Ruth Hunt has a career to think of, she can't be bothered with homosexuals any more! We're old hat now.

is trolling part of your hypocrisy too? Are you to follow me everywhere to every post I make with your critique?

Ok, I copying this here and then reporting your post for calling me a troll.

My point about assholes being assholes, was in reference to people insisting that their are only two sexes; while using the term intersex.... and; no matter the evidence, understanding or illustration of harms caused by binary thinking, you just stick to your rhetoric that intersex people are simply disordered and are not valid or entitled to having their sex classified as third, (or to respect any wider discourse of multiple sex etc)
I’m allowed to call that out dear.

You are dear, but, "calling it out" in this case is actually embarrassing yourself with your display of nonsense about disorders of sex development. Use the word variation if you can't cope with the word disorder.

It was, in the Govt's eyes, FAR preferable to convert a same sex couple into a heterosexual couple via 'sex change' than it was to make same sex marriage legal
That's a good point, I wonder why the GRA wasn't dismantled after marriage laws were changed? There's no real need for it.

Nice one old crone. I havent got round to listening to that yet.

Significant thread re the history of transrights in UK:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

AngryAttackKittenswrote , "I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."

And when I say there's no real need for the GRA now, I mean in terms of it's original scope. To allow transitioning people to marry as heterosexuals.
There are no positive or negative rights that any other group has that trans people do not have. They are arguing for extras.

nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated
I read that thread, it's very informative. I was just noting that LGB organisations had trans people covered because there was an overlap. Although I think the influx of AGP men has changed the trans movement, I'm not naïve enough to believe they ever had women's interests at heart.

Women's liberation is by it's nature exclusive of men, however those men identify. It is also inclusive of all women, however they identify or whether they have intersex conditions or not.

The whole world does not have to centre men in everything. I know how difficult men find this to conceptualise, but tough. Live with it. Women have had to live with being excluded from pretty much everything for centuries. No more.

FlyingOink Its worth reading Vulvamort's collation from Hansard re the GRA debates.
Many of the current issues were raised (& dismissed)

The whole world does not have to centre men in everything. I know how difficult men find this to conceptualise, but tough

I have been absolutely blindsided by the way groups of men just CANNOT accept that they might not always be the main focus of interest. It's been revelatory.

R0wantrees was that on the linked thread? It was a while ago I read it, I shall revisit, thanks.

Sheila Jeffries at the first 'We Need To Talk Meeting' which took place after Maria Machlaclan was assaulted at Speaker's Corner.

Sheila Jeffries describes transgenderism as part of the wider men's sexual rights movement and describes attempts by males to join women's spaces back in 1970's:
'What Is Gender?'

R0wantrees was that on the linked thread? It was a while ago I read it, I shall revisit, thanks.

It is there, also here:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1049289194370002945.html

R0wantrees
Thanks again

I have been absolutely blindsided by the way groups of men just CANNOT accept that they might not always be the main focus of interest. It's been revelatory.

Me too Fazackerley. Revelatory is the word.

@JaxintheBlue - my problem with some transactivism is the way that it seems to seek to replace women. It was Shon Faye who said "Women - enjoy ur erasure!" They also seem to expect women to centre the needs of MTF trans people, at the expense of their own needs and safety. To some, it doesn't matter a jot that some biological women are scared of having people with fully functioning penises in spaces where they, the women, feel vulnerable - like changing rooms or toilets.

I will never support the way some transactivists want children to be given irreversible hormone treatment that could cause osteoporosis, leave them sterile, whether they choose to carry on and fully transition or not, and which could have a negative impact on their ability to learn during their most important educational years - all without the knowledge or consent of their parents!

On another thread on here, someone said something very wise - I apologise that I can't remember who it was - but they said something along these lines - "I have no problem with trans people being given a seat at the table - but women have fought long and hard for their seat and I am not willing to give that up to the trans community. They are welcome to their own seat - they are not welcome to women's seat!"

Can you explain to me how the feelings of a MTF trans person who wants to work in a women's domestic violence shelter, trumps the need of the women who use that shelter to have a space free of people who were born male and may still have fully functioning male genitalia?

Or how it is OK that someone who has had all the physical advantages in terms of bone density, lung capacity, muscle mass, endurance and strength that male androgens give, should be able to ID as female and dominate in the women's version of their sport, against women who have not had their advantages? How is that fair? Why should women meekly shift over and relinquish their hard-fought-for sports to people who were born and grew up male?

When you ask for inclusive feminism, what space do YOU see for biological women in that feminism? Do you think we have a right to be part of feminism, or do you want us to just shut up and go away, so that MTF trans people can 'have' feminism and womanhood all to themselves? Because I will NEVER agree to the latter, nor will I ever be happy to support inclusion when it means the exclusion of biological women.

Can you explain to me how the feelings of a MTF trans person who wants to work in a women's domestic violence shelter, trumps the need of the women who use that shelter to have a space free of people who were born male and may still have fully functioning male genitalia?

Or how the validation of a male HCP/ doctor's gender identity trumps the need for female patients to have a female chaperone during intimate gyny examinations?

I think there's been a recent thread following a recent described situation in A&E as circulated on twitter. I'm not sure if it was confirmed though and wasn't on the thread to link.

January 2018:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3125889-Woman-requests-a-female-nurse-She-gets-a-transwoman-instead

This would be me..and I suspect most others on the board too. Infact, I (and probably many others here) actually fall under the 'trans umbrella' as it currently stands, tbh I think most people would.

To my mind though, feminism is about female people. And I find it sad that some keep trying to put across that concern for the rights of female people, is 'anti-trans'. It doesn't seem possible to acknowledge sex at all without being called transphobic, which is bonkers.

Another trans inclusive feminist here

Always have been. My feminism covers all biological females however they identify since our oppression is based upon our biology.

Vix I agree with you. Absolutely this.

I’ve jumped here from the other thread, where I’m still wondering what the difference is between me and Jax in being non binary. Genuinely would love to know.

Like many of us here I have fought tooth and claw for those who society rejects. I still do. And yes that means I’m trans inclusive too OP. Although I suspect not in the way you were hoping for.

And yes that means I’m trans inclusive too OP. Although I suspect not in the way you were hoping for.

And that deviation from prostrated obedience makes you one of the biggest transphobic hate fulled bigot going, dontchaknow? Fucking ridiculous state of affairs

(OP, do let us know when you've got enough screenshots for your Twitter posts about us uppity bitches, won't you?)